Can of worms here.

[SDM]

Question 12 should almost certainly be removed as it implies that a England currently has a native population to hybridise. This is certainly not true of 90% of England.

 

[B+.]

Somebody mentioned earlier that the BBKA has a stated aim to reduce or stop imports. Worth considering that this results from a proposition voted on at an ADM: a room full of 70-ish Association representatives, many of whom are not elected by, answerable to, or even known by their Association members... but once voted for it has to be enacted.

That doesn't mean that it is the aim of the trustees, nor the employees, nor indeed the grass roots membership; just the preference of 70-ish unelected, unaccountable reps last time they were asked. If those same reps had voted for the mandatory use of WBCs, brood and a half, or matchsticks, then that too would then be BBKA policy.

Which is why I didn't renew my BBKA membership.
When you see that an organisation to which you belong is acting against your interests, what else can you do?

 

[B+.]

My own answer was "no - a programme might be beneficial but must not be tied to any particular sub-species"

It isn't just individual questions, but, the pattern of those questions taken together that makes me say that it is not an impartial survey. The damage is done.
As I said previously, "Trust is hard won and easily lost". Things like this makes it difficult to trust an organisation that is so clearly tainted.

Your point about having a programme tied to no sub-species doesn't make sense to me. The purpose of a breeding programme is to raise the mean of the population generation after generation. You can only make progress by selecting from within a closed population or each new introduction will cause slippage.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Jeez - it's depressing, isn't it.

Only if you let it do so, I think probably best to just steer clear of all of it.

what else can you do?

Much as your doing I think, just have nothing to do with such organizations.

 

[B+.]

Much as your doing I think, just have nothing to do with such organizations.

My local association (Bedfordshire) isn't affiliated to the BBKA so I happily paid my £10 membership subs for that. I cancelled my membership of North-Bucks BKA because that has BBKA membership bundled in. I have nothing against NBBKA...it's just the behavior of the BBKA I object to.

 

[Brian Bush]

OK, I see where you are coming from. As noted above, many organisations participated - including BIBBA. The chap from DEFRA who has pulled the survey together is not daft, but neither is he a beekeeper. He won't realise the subtleties of the words he is given (such as 'hybrid' being a very loaded and divisive term, even where it is technically correct), and instead has relied on those closer to beekeeping to debate hte final wording. It's the old scenario of "three beekeepers, four opinions" plus one (two?) organisations at the table with a clear agenda.

Hi Dan, There is no such thing as a hybrid bee. A hybrid is the result of crossing two closely related species. i.e A horse and a donkey to create a mule or a lion and a tiger to create a tigon.
We only cross sub-species of bees. The are all aphis mellifera . They are not hybrids they are mongrels. A true hybrid is normally sterile and cannot be bred from. Buckfast bees are just a complicated mongrel. We cannot cross AM bees from Europe and Africa with Asian honey bees as the strains are too different. If the people at APHA do not know that there is no such thing as a hybrid honeybee what hope do we have???

 

[Brian Bush]

Understood - it's about the few with an axe to grind being in a position to influence?

Somebody mentioned earlier that the BBKA has a stated aim to reduce or stop imports. Worth considering that this results from a proposition voted on at an ADM: a room full of 70-ish Association representatives, many of whom are not elected by, answerable to, or even known by their Association members... but once voted for it has to be enacted.

That doesn't mean that it is the aim of the trustees, nor the employees, nor indeed the grass roots membership; just the preference of 70-ish unelected, unaccountable reps last time they were asked. If those same reps had voted for the mandatory use of WBCs, brood and a half, or matchsticks, then that too would then be BBKA policy.

Jeez - it's depressing, isn't it.

Yes Dan it is depressing. These idiots will drive more beekeepers off the radar. I read the BBKA proposition to the ADM regarding imports. I wrote to my chairman and he took it to the County Association and they agreed that our delegate should vote against the propositions from AMM lobby. I wonder how many of my fellow members bothered to read the propositions?
I wonder how many of them understood the implications?
I wonder how many local associations committees would have discussed the issue if individual members had not been alerted by forum members?
I wonder hoe many County Associations would have discussed the propositions and instructed their delegate how to vote?
I wonder how many Associations have checked how the delegate voted?
I wonder if there is any way of verifying that delegates voted for the wishes of the County Association?
I am left considering the meaning of AWE and WONDER!!

 

[Finman]

OK, I see where you are coming from. As noted above, many organisations participated - including BIBBA. The chap from DEFRA who has pulled the survey together is not daft, but neither is he a beekeeper. He won't realise the subtleties of the words he is given (such as 'hybrid' being a very loaded and divisive term, even where it is technically correct), and instead has relied on those closer to beekeeping to debate hte final wording. It's the old scenario of "three beekeepers, four opinions" plus one (two?) organisations at the table with a clear agenda.

Hi Dan, There is no such thing as a hybrid bee. A hybrid is the result of crossing two closely related species. i.e A horse and a donkey to create a mule or a lion and a tiger to create a tigon.
We only cross sub-species of bees. The are all aphis mellifera . They are not hybrids they are mongrels. A true hybrid is normally sterile and cannot be bred from. Buckfast bees are just a complicated mongrel. We cannot cross AM bees from Europe and Africa with Asian honey bees as the strains are too different. If the people at APHA do not know that there is no such thing as a hybrid honeybee what hope do we have???

Hybrid may be what ever.
If you buy F1 seeds, they are crossings of two different strains. Result is hybrid vigour. Then the seed brom hybrid is what ever, and as seed seller you would sell mongrells, what you cannot quarantee what they are.

And hybrids of two cattle race, or hybrid with cattle and American Buffalo.

But we do not name street dogs as hybrid.


It depends what we are discussing and what we are meaning.

Nature try to keep on hybridisation. That is why there is sexual propagation. That gives material to evolution.

I do not know case, where nature goes towards "pure " strains. But there are mutations, which split the species to two different species. Number of cromosome is such simple sign.

 

[B+.]

many organisations participated - including BIBBA. The chap from DEFRA who has pulled the survey together is not daft, but neither is he a beekeeper. He won't realise the subtleties of the words he is given (such as 'hybrid' being a very loaded and divisive term, even where it is technically correct), and instead has relied on those closer to beekeeping to debate hte final wording. It's the old scenario of "three beekeepers, four opinions" plus one (two?) organisations at the table with a clear agenda.

Given that the purpose of the survey is to understand beekeepers' attitudes towards queen sourcing, how would you better word the following for neutrality... or would you remove them altogether?

APHA are a publicly funded body. I shall be writing to my MP to ask why public funds are being fraudulently spent on a private initiate by BIBBA

 

[Brian Bush]

Hybrid may be what ever.
If you buy F1 seeds, they are crossings of two different strains. .

Sorry Finman I must disagree. The use of the term hybrid for the crossing of 2 closely related subspecies is a misuse of the word. Similarly the use of strains is a lazy use. Strains can be taken to mean subspecies or closely related species. The crossing of a cow with a Bison,(American Buffalo) may produce sexually viable offspring, I am not sure. The crossing of a cow with a buffalo,(water buffalo), does produce viable offspring because they are related sub-species not species. Bison may be a closely related subspecies of the cow.
As you say seeds are often (mis)-labelled as Hybrids. It is either, ignorance, laziness or a marketing ploy.
The use of naming F1 F2 families etc is nothing to do with hybridization it is just the generation after the crossing and they will not breed true. If you cross a wolf with a greyhound, not a hybridization, they are related sub-species, subsequent generations will give all sort of looks. They do not breed true.

 

[Into the lions den]

I have filled it in this morning after reading this thread, based on our presence in Hereford and Gloucester. I have pointed out the irrelevance of the survey as it is completely slanted to micro scale entities. No place to account for someone who raises over 2000 home produced queens a year, and also works with Piemonte to raise even more 'home origin' queens and also other non UK lines. '50+' as the TOP bracket is just so inadequate.

My suggestion on what would be the best help was to 'Just leave us alone to get on with it'.

I agree that the final questions seem to make it hard to answer 'no' without feeling you are undermining some kind of 'worthy' cause. Like DanBee I answered no. I have direct experience of the relative levels of demand for various bee types and, at least on a commercial level (by which I mean it being worthwhile as a breeding project...nothing to do with honey) its a non starter and thus real commercial demand will never ever be met by the black bee groups. Sorry Dan, but I tend to agree with the others...you have to read the questions and see what is behind them rather than just the words. I am in no doubt there is a black bee agenda, at least in the minds of some who influenced the questions.

Despite all the above I DO have some black bees, and will continue to experiment with some lines, but they ARE more difficult and take a disproportionate amount of management time. Their hardiness at heather time, bred into our stock, makes them still of some value to us, but I would rail strongly against being told I had to use them, and indeed would not co=operate with that.

In our breeding unit we reached tentative agreement on official certification for queens and nucs sold. This would be subject to an extra charge, just at cost, to have an inspector check everything over and issue a certificate before sale. Collectively we thought it a good idea. £5 per nuc. Take up? Precisely zero, which surprised me. They would rather save a fiver and trust our own checks than pay the extra. So..on behalf of my clients I filled in the boxes appropriately.

Final comment on the last box. 'Bury this and just let us work.'

 

[mbc]

Interesting that on each extreme there's a "vociferous minority", called out by the other side, but only one side has vested commercial interest in this, expect the status quo to continue and calmly carry on is best I recon. I'm all for stopping imports for biosecurity reasons and for the good of my prefered bee but have no delusions this is going to happen or indeed that most beekeepers would want it to.

 

[Finman]

Sorry Finman I must disagree. The use of the term hybrid for the crossing of 2 closely related subspecies is a misuse of the word.

The crossing of a cow with a Bison,(American Buffalo) may produce sexually viable offspring, I am not sure. The crossing of a cow with a buffalo,

Yeah. Read from English Webster dictionary, what means hybrid.

Then read from google about Beefalo farming.

Do not pull your hairs.
.

 

[Into the lions den]

Interesting that on each extreme there's a "vociferous minority", called out by the other side, but only one side has vested commercial interest in this, expect the status quo to continue and calmly carry on is best I recon. I'm all for stopping imports for biosecurity reasons and for the good of my prefered bee but have no delusions this is going to happen or indeed that most beekeepers would want it to.

That's just utterly false. (the bit about only one side having vested commercial interest) Our breeding project would do VERY well indeed under an import ban...............but I don't want to be forced into a many years project of totally uncertain outcome using bees that are not great to start with just to protect what are...and sorry to be so blunt...largely an amateur's pets.

I would make a lot more money from our breeding project if there was a ban, but conversely make a lot less money if any at all from the honey business...and you can wax lyrical about the black wonder bees all you like...I KNOW them......if forced to use all black bees. I would have considerably less honey for the public. Its part the lower per colony production and partly the increased labour input per colony needed to work with a relatively difficult bee, never mind the more awkward siting needs to keep them further away from the public.

The popularity of well bred bees from abroad is rising, not falling. Witness the hugely enthusiastic response from those who went on the BFA's Danish trip this past week. They are 50 years ahead of us. We are a generally backward beekeeping country, and getting more and more introverted. Last time I looked up my Thesaurus I failed to note the word 'inferior' listed as an alternative for 'foreign'..................yet ONE side of the native/local bee debate uses the words almost as interchangeable. Good bees are good bees, irrespective of origin. Yes there can be regional fluctuations in which bees are best.....but to say only 'local' can do is protectionist nonsense and institutionalises mediocrity.

 

[Into the lions den]

and note...before firing back....I said 'well bred bees'. I do not, and never have, advocated the importation of just any old bees, as some are plainly unsuited to our needs in any part of the UK.

Iberica anyone? easily available, cheap, swarm like hell, and sting like crazy. Some have brought them in.

added later.........

Sorry to all for having my grumpy hat on today. Am tired, got a headache, trying to work on a leaflet about fruit pollination, and getting never ending phone calls from beeks worried about their bees and trying to order new stock. Also...as is obvious...in an easily distracted mood.

 

[DanBee]

Your point about having a programme tied to no sub-species doesn't make sense to me. The purpose of a breeding programme is to raise the mean of the population generation after generation. You can only make progress by selecting from within a closed population or each new introduction will cause slippage.

A "national breeding programme" to produce a single pool of 'improved' bees will never take off because it will require beekeepers across the country to agree on what they want from their bees, in what environment, which compromises they are willing to accept (at least in the short term) and how much they are willing to pay (in cash or in kind) for the results.

We see this disagreement every time the subspecies debate arises!

What we lack in this country are the tools and experience to establish and operate a breeding programme. We are indeed a backwards beekeeping country in a number of respects, coordinated queen breeding in particular. In reality, given access to tools and experience, would it boil down to a number of different regional and/or subspecies interest groups replicating (and inevitably duplicating) the model to each establish a breeding programme towards their own preferred ends?

 

[Finman]

.
Somebody's breeding programme is not a law. And the reason is "native".
Some think, that a wrong race would be worse than AFB. Somebody is kidding. But wrong race spreads faster than foul brood.
.

 

[Beefriendly]

We are indeed a backwards beekeeping country in a number of respects, coordinated queen breeding in particular. In reality, given access to tools and experience, would it boil down to a number of different regional and/or subspecies interest groups replicating (and inevitably duplicating) the model to each establish a breeding programme towards their own preferred ends?

What we badly lack are isolated mating areas that would facilitate breeding programs. II seems the only way to control mating's for the majority of would be breeders within the UK.
When you look at mainland Europe they have many registered "isolated" mating sites, Islands, isolated valleys (mainly Alpine) and peninsulas etc.
As B+ often points out you can send your virgins (with vet certif) to be mated with their selected drones in some of these.
You are quite correct we are quiet backwards as a beekeeping country. I thought education was the way forward; but experience has shown that the reality is political and belief driven and facts are blatantly ignored as inconveniences if they get in the way.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What we badly lack are isolated mating areas that would facilitate breeding programs. II seems the only way to control mating's for the majority of would be breeders within the UK.

We don't lack the areas/Islands, what we lack are enough people that can be bothered to do something about it, same as using II, very few can be bothered.

 

[Beefriendly]

We don't lack the areas/Islands, what we lack are enough people that can be bothered to do something about it, same as using II, very few can be bothered.

We sure have a few islands. But other areas? You have one. Jon has one in NI. Enerdale forest in the Lakes is another I know of.
I've investigated 2 potentials in the North York Moors, both of no use as I easily found at least 1 local bee fanatic in each area....plus usage limited to early season as both are swamped with immigrants in the heather season. Tried to convince one of these keepers to use the strain of bees I use. Free queens etc...but nope his association had told him he was keeping the best bees for his area.