Can of worms here.

[B+.]

You are under control. They will come and burn your hives. Why else they are interested about your hives? Who heck has time to look after those data and why?
.

What are you on about?

 

[Finman]

What are you on about?

Is it same as what's up!

 

[B+.]

Is it same as what's up!

I didn't understand what you were saying

 

[Beefriendly]

Did you know that you can also wangle it so that you have lots of different names registered on here ?

Seems the master of different names was Hoppy/Cheers/Tiny Bee James somebody etcetc..
How many do you have?

 

[Stiffy]

Seems the master of different names was Hoppy/Cheers/Tiny Bee James somebody etcetc..
How many do you have?

Where did he go or is Mr Jekyll or Hyde lurking ? Strange but I sometimes miss the vacuous posts.
S

 

[pargyle]

Seems the master of different names was Hoppy/Cheers/Tiny Bee James somebody etcetc..
How many do you have?

I've only ever had one ... and it's my actual name .. I've nothing to hide from.

 

[Beefriendly]

Where did he go or is Mr Jekyll or Hyde lurking ? Strange but I sometimes miss the vacuous posts.
S

I think many threads now adhere more to the original topic as his vacuous posts rarely had anything in common with them.

 

[Beefriendly]

I've only ever had one ... and it's my actual name .. I've nothing to hide from.

You need to get out there.....live a little......

 

[pargyle]

Where did he go or is Mr Jekyll or Hyde lurking ? Strange but I sometimes miss the vacuous posts.
S

I think he might have fallen off the bridge and been eaten by the occupants underneath it ... Cheers ?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=620172#post620172

#Post 179

 

[Nige.Coll]

A lot of this anti import mullarkey is being driven by a couple of people in high positions.
Petrified about importing tropilaelaps and small hive beetle.
I listened to a talk about it by one of them and they paid no attention to the import rules and implied that you can import anything from anywhere. This was a blatant lie, there is a 100km exclusion zone around tropilaelaps or shb. The import rules are very specific. For a reason.
The speaker either didn't know or ignored the legislation to make a point, like some bloody political party.
Someone has managed to whip up some hysteria by being economical with the truth.
The fact is that small hive beetle will probably arrive here on fruit not bees.

I couldn't care less what bees people keep, I wouldn't dare tell you what colour car to buy.
I don't import queens or bees but I'm just a hobby keeper trying to improve my bees for my own satisfaction. I don't really care about large honey crops. I like the complexity of bees not messing with honey.
Too many get their head so far up their arse they become oxygen starved.

 

[Stiffy]

A lot of this anti import mullarkey is being driven by a couple of people in high positions.
Petrified about importing tropilaelaps and small hive beetle.
I listened to a talk about it by one of them and they paid no attention to the import rules and implied that you can import anything from anywhere. This was a blatant lie, there is a 100km exclusion zone around tropilaelaps or shb. The import rules are very specific. For a reason.
The speaker either didn't know or ignored the legislation to make a point, like some bloody political party.
Someone has managed to whip up some hysteria by being economical with the truth.
The fact is that small hive beetle will probably arrive here on fruit not bees.

I couldn't care less what bees people keep, I wouldn't dare tell you what colour car to buy.
I don't import queens or bees but I'm just a hobby keeper trying to improve my bees for my own satisfaction. I don't really care about large honey crops. I like the complexity of bees not messing with honey.
Too many get their head so far up their arse they become oxygen starved.

Couldn’t agree more, I may be like a scratchy record but we are all keeping the same species. Sadly there’s a few who believe they have some kind of holy grail and are on a mission to convert the misguided, ignoring the facts on the way
S

 

[DanBee]

More "near native" propaganda dressed up as a serious survey. It is full of loaded questions.

More worrying is DEFRAs political reasons for wanting the survey in the first place.

APHA usually are impartial. They usually focus on the science. I was quite shocked to find such a biased document.

I duly filled in the survey being led along until I got to the final page. Nowhere does it indicate that the interest is purely in AMM until the final questions.

I came late to the discussions but provided some input into the wording of that survey. Let me categorically state that the purpose of the exercise is not to promote one flavour of bee, nor to ban imports, nor to force registration of queen/bee suppliers. It is an information gathering exercise.

Look at the live bee import data on the NBU website (EU and non-EU) and it is clear that queen imports in particular are rising rapidly. Consider also all the questions relating to biosecurity and border controls that the arrival of AH in the UK, and SHB in Italy, have prompted during the same period.

What do we actually know about why beekeepers choose to import more and more queens? Why are imported bees/queens of such appeal to beekeepers? Do beekeepers know (or care) where queens come from? How much queen raising activity is undertaken already in the UK, and how much of it in a commercial, collaborative, or cooperative manner?

Many beekeeping perspectives were involved in putting the survey together: amateur, commercial, governmental, and scientific. Try to imagine the initial drafts from such a diverse and potentially conflicting range of inputs; the key driver in refining the survey questions was to keep them impartial whilst still being meaningful by avoiding where possible bias, suggestion, or "breed politics".

There is no preconception about Amm.

The more genuine responses that are received from beekeepers, the better informed will be any subsequent discussions. Please spare 5 minutes to give your views.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The more genuine responses that are received from beekeepers, the better informed will be any subsequent discussions.

Discussions about what and by who, what are their names, and what is the name of the individual that initially thought up this idea?

It is an information gathering exercise.

Why, for what purpose exactly.

 

[B+.]

I came late to the discussions but provided some input into the wording of that survey. Let me categorically state that the purpose of the exercise is not to promote one flavour of bee, nor to ban imports, nor to force registration of queen/bee suppliers. It is an information gathering exercise.

I'm sorry Dan but that is not the way it comes across. It starts off quite impartial but becomes progressively more biased.
I deliberately didn't renew my BBKA membership because it would be incongruent to support an organisation that doesn't represent my views. this is the sort of survey that makes people think there's an agenda behind it.

 

[Brian Bush]

I came late to the discussions but provided some input into the wording of that survey. Let me categorically state that the purpose of the exercise is not to promote one flavour of bee, nor to ban imports, nor to force registration of queen/bee suppliers. It is an information gathering exercise. .

Dan, I filled out the form as I said earlier but the final page is worded in such a way that I immediately 'smelt bias' in the compiler(s). I felt that someone has an agenda, I hope I am wrong! I assume that the many parties involved would include the BBKA? If so we have a party involved with a declared agenda of preventing the import of bees. Similarly is BIBBA involved?
Are you able to provide a little clarity on membership of the working party?

 

[madasafish]

There is no preconception about Amm.

The more genuine responses that are received from beekeepers, the better informed will be any subsequent discussions. Please spare 5 minutes to give your views.

Dan
I read what you write .

Unfortunately when I took the survey I had exactly the same thoughts as those mentioned by others.

I also listened to the comments about imports at the ADM. There are a number of beekeepers who have strong views about them - and the survey's last questions could have been written by any of them .

If a survey reads as biased and mirrors the words and intentions of others who publicly state their bias, then the appearance of bias means it is biased. Whether it was intended or not..

 

[B+.]

If a survey reads as biased and mirrors the words and intentions of others who publicly state their bias, then the appearance of bias means it is biased. Whether it was intended or not..

Since this was an APHA survey, just how impartial is APHA?
The last page looks pretty biased to me...particularly question 16 and 17

11. Are you, or would you be, interested in knowing the heritage of your queens before purchase?


Yes

No

Don’t know/unsure

12. Do you think the mixing of native and imported honeybee strains is?

Positive

Negative

Don’t know/unsure
Please explain why you think this


13. Would you be interested in buying queens from an accredited UK source?

There is currently no government accreditation scheme for rearing honey bee queens. An accredited supplier could be one who met specific criteria on training, pest/disease prevalence and bee heritage and listed by government/beekeeping associations as meeting these requirements.

Yes

No

Don't know/unsure

14. In theory, would you be willing to pay more for queens from an accredited supplier than a non-accredited supplier?

Yes

No

Don’t know/unsure

15. How much more do you think you’d be willing to pay for an accredited queen?


0% more

1-10% more

11-20% more

Greater than 20%

16. Would you be in favour of a national breeding programme for England based on the native/near-native sub-species, Apis mellifera mellifera?

A national breeding programme would concentrate on propagating native or near-native honey bees whilst reducing contact with imported bees

Yes

No

Dont' know/unsure

17. If yes, would you wish to rear queens as part of this programme?

Yes

No

Don't know/unsure
Please briefly note any reasons for your answer

 

[DanBee]

Discussions about what and by who, what are their names, and what is the name of the individual that initially thought up this idea?

Why, for what purpose exactly.

Pete, I hear you loud and clear!

The survey came out of the Bee Health Advisory Forum, a quarterly meeting of APHA and beekeeping organisations that has been meeting over the past 9 years under the Healthy Bees Plan. The front of the survey tells you this:

Through this survey Defra is seeking to gain a greater understanding of English beekeepers' views towards queen replacement practices and the importation of bees. All questions are optional. We anticipate the survey will take approximately 5 minutes to complete. If you keep bees, or have kept bees in the past, your views are of interest to us. By completing the survey you will be increasing our knowledge of this important sector.

The survey has been arranged by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) and put together in collaboration with the National Bee Unit (NBU), the British Beekeepers Association (BBKA), the Bee Farmers’ Association (BFA), the National Diploma in Beekeeping (NDB) and the Bee Improvement and Bee Breeders Association (BIBBA).

To be fair, when I last saw the draft survey there was a fuller explanation of what and why the survey was seeking to understand. I've queried where that has gone to.

I can imagine for you and others here it feels like your right to conduct business might be curtailed by the whimsy and prejudice of Amm devotees. Several of the beekeeping organisations that attend BHAF have been very strongly advocating that there needs to be a complete division between any initiatives relating to bee health and any preference of sub-species.

The import statistics for any recent year show that there is a huge demand for queens that cannot be currently met by UK raisers/breeders. Given that sub-species (or perceived characteristics thereof) features highly when beekeepers discuss purchasing queens, it would be incorrect to assume that only on sub-species (e.g. Amm) would displace all imports even if they were available at the same price, quantity, and time of year as current imports.

We know of the failure by BIBBA to make Amm queens available on anything that could be called a commercial basis. It appears to me that they latterly grew reliant on activity in Ireland, yet the formation of NIHBS 5 years ago took those active participants out of BIBBA; ironically though in recent years I am only aware of Jon in NI who is able to produce and sell Amm queens in quantity and to those outside of 'the club'. Is Michael Collier producing Amm? Murray offers a 'local' line, but I don't recall them being described as Amm, just hardy locals.

To stop or curtail queen importation would do nothing to satisfy the current demand - likely it would simply drive importation underground (unseen and unchecked). It would imediately cut off legitimate access to the professional bee breeding groups that have been in operation for decades in Europe - both in terms of access to queens and breeding materials, but also access to participate within their activities and thereby learn from their experience and techniques, and to make use of their data recording and lineage tools. B+ is ideally placed to remind us of the open, professional, documented and traceable breeding activities that are undertaken in Europe. I would estimate that the majority of the queens raised commercially in this country come from imported breeder stock in some form.

I'm speculating over the concerns several of you might have, but I'm trying to be constructive too.

 

[DanBee]

Since this was an APHA survey, just how impartial is APHA?
The last page looks pretty biased to me...particularly question 16 and 17

OK, I see where you are coming from. As noted above, many organisations participated - including BIBBA. The chap from DEFRA who has pulled the survey together is not daft, but neither is he a beekeeper. He won't realise the subtleties of the words he is given (such as 'hybrid' being a very loaded and divisive term, even where it is technically correct), and instead has relied on those closer to beekeeping to debate hte final wording. It's the old scenario of "three beekeepers, four opinions" plus one (two?) organisations at the table with a clear agenda.

Given that the purpose of the survey is to understand beekeepers' attitudes towards queen sourcing, how would you better word the following for neutrality... or would you remove them altogether?

11. Are you, or would you be, interested in knowing the heritage of your queens before purchase?

Yes

No

Don’t know/unsure

From my contact with beekeepers, they decide the race they want then look to see who has it cheapest & at the right time. Yes, there is an appetite for 'anything local', but when people get into buying as a short-cut to stock improvement, they want known characteristics.

12. Do you think the mixing of native and imported honeybee strains is?

Positive

Negative

Don’t know/unsure
Please explain why you think this

This one was heavily modified from the original; you'd spit your tea out if you saw the original form. As it stands, I think it is a valid question in near-neutral wording. Some might be offended just at the presence of this question, in that to ask it suggests there is a problem. It's a similar semantic issue (to a lesser extent) to the way that the term 'natural beekeeping' made some bristle simply due to the implication that all else was 'unnatural'. But how do you ask the question and avoid all offence?

13. Would you be interested in buying queens from an accredited UK source?

14. In theory, would you be willing to pay more for queens from an accredited supplier than a non-accredited supplier?

15. How much more do you think you’d be willing to pay for an accredited queen?

These are asking about confidence in domestic suppliers, how a rubber stamp might influence confidence, and how much £ that rubber stamp is worth to a consumer.

Given that beekeepers generally have short arms and deep pockets, I think few will go for a hefty premium, if any. Note there is nothing here that says that the "UK supplier" is not an agent for an overseas raiser/breeder, or raising from material brought into the country, or whatever permutation of domestic/import you might suggest.

I would also say the example of DASH has been positive in most cases - although fully accept that past performance is no guarantee of future outcomes.

16. Would you be in favour of a national breeding programme for England based on the native/near-native sub-species, Apis mellifera mellifera?

A national breeding programme would concentrate on propagating native or near-native honey bees whilst reducing contact with imported bees

Yes

No

Dont' know/unsure

OK, I see the bold and understand your concerns at this one. It is a question that has to be asked, in some fashion. There is a lot of instinctive emotional support for 'native' as a concept, even if the subtleties and practicalities are not understood. With hindsight, this should have been seperated into two questions: "Do you support a national breeding programme?", and "should that programme concentrate on one sub-species or accommodate several sub-species breeding activities?"

My own answer was "no - a programme might be beneficial but must not be tied to any particular sub-species"

17. If yes, would you wish to rear queens as part of this programme?

This was here to try to distinguish between those who support the concept, and those who would actively participate in some way.

Again, as I said, how would you re-word for neutrality, or which would you remove?

 

[DanBee]

I also listened to the comments about imports at the ADM. There are a number of beekeepers who have strong views about them - and the survey's last questions could have been written by any of them .

Understood - it's about the few with an axe to grind being in a position to influence?

Somebody mentioned earlier that the BBKA has a stated aim to reduce or stop imports. Worth considering that this results from a proposition voted on at an ADM: a room full of 70-ish Association representatives, many of whom are not elected by, answerable to, or even known by their Association members... but once voted for it has to be enacted.

That doesn't mean that it is the aim of the trustees, nor the employees, nor indeed the grass roots membership; just the preference of 70-ish unelected, unaccountable reps last time they were asked. If those same reps had voted for the mandatory use of WBCs, brood and a half, or matchsticks, then that too would then be BBKA policy.

Jeez - it's depressing, isn't it.