Can of worms here.

[Hivemaker.]

Wonder if there is any relationship/input into the questions asked in this one?

No.

 

[mbc]

That's just utterly false. (the bit about only one side having vested commercial interest) Our breeding project would do VERY well indeed under an import ban...............but I don't want to be forced into a many years project of totally uncertain outcome using bees that are not great to start with just to protect what are...and sorry to be so blunt...largely an amateur's pets.

I would make a lot more money from our breeding project if there was a ban, but conversely make a lot less money if any at all from the honey business...and you can wax lyrical about the black wonder bees all you like...I KNOW them......if forced to use all black bees. I would have considerably less honey for the public. Its part the lower per colony production and partly the increased labour input per colony needed to work with a relatively difficult bee, never mind the more awkward siting needs to keep them further away from the public.

The popularity of well bred bees from abroad is rising, not falling. Witness the hugely enthusiastic response from those who went on the BFA's Danish trip this past week. They are 50 years ahead of us. We are a generally backward beekeeping country, and getting more and more introverted. Last time I looked up my Thesaurus I failed to note the word 'inferior' listed as an alternative for 'foreign'..................yet ONE side of the native/local bee debate uses the words almost as interchangeable. Good bees are good bees, irrespective of origin. Yes there can be regional fluctuations in which bees are best.....but to say only 'local' can do is protectionist nonsense and institutionalises mediocrity.

Interesting that you should paint yourself in the home grown queens camp, is this borne out by the proportion of homegrown to imported queens you deal with?

 

[Into the lions den]

Interesting that you should paint yourself in the home grown queens camp, is this borne out by the proportion of homegrown to imported queens you deal with?

Not painting myself into any camp. I have *always* advocated a twin track approach.

Our queen unit raises around 1500 per season in Scotland. We field raise in excess of 1000 more. We produced over 750 nucs last year for both sale and own use, in addition to over 1500 splits in the field mostly destined for re-uniting at the heather. this year it will be about 1100 nucs and 2000 queens from the unit, and an indeterminate number of field raised (note RAISED) ....not accidental occurrences. That's is ALL raised in Scotland, or to some extent in Hereford and Gloucs.

We have selected stock in Piemonte as well to get queens raised from our own material back from 3rd week April onwards.

In addition we bring in queens of other types in accordance with client orders. I can get Buckfast, carnica, Amm, ligustica...and of course the types raised from our own stock. Demand runs at about 40% Buckfast, 25% own stock,30% carnica, 5% all others together. Its changing daily right now. How many will we be bringing in? That's confidential of course.

I bring in packages on what started out as a common good project. responsibly sourced and at a sensible rather than exploitative price. My own use of these last year was precisely zero. Likely to be the same this year. Demand soaring as beeks WANT this stock and winter losses, especially in SE England, appear to be rising sharply as spring goes backwards and backwards. Some beeks are heading for a crisis and they are still nowhere near crossover day.

That's just facts...not inviting any 'holier than thou' types of answers. Wilful misportrayal of what I do without even asking will attract rebuttal....which is the reason I came to this forum in the first place many years ago and why the handle is as it is.

Your interpretation of what I wrote was very selective. I said our *breeding unit* would do very well under a ban...but that's only a minor part of our trade.........pales into insignificance against 70 tonnes plus of heather honey, the market for which, to the EU, will be potentially damaged by Brexit and could be cut off in any trade wars if the UK starts erecting barriers. 16 jobs, many with mortgages, here depend on our stability.


Just to enlarge on why the 'twin track' is crucial.....is that in seasons when its easy to raise queens and produce nucs domestically it is usually easy for everyone and demand is low. In seasons when demand is high it usually follows heavy losses and a high proportion of small colonies. and it generally follows then that availability of domestic product is insufficient to meet demand, and excessive pricing comes into play. Does not make for a stable free standing business, for either the supplier or customer side, hence these units, the few that there are, are normally buds on the side of an existing bee farm. Micro producers, say under 500 queens per annum, make no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things, unless there will be a large number of them. Might bring forth indignation, but there are a number of SINGLE ORDERS out there this year for imported queens exceeding 1000.

The lack of a vibrant UK based industry supplying *commercial numbers* of queens and nucs is not down to lack of people who would try...its down to the fact that it is very difficult to do this in a stable and viable manner. Even raising all these nucs and queens it is not really viable without cross support from the bee farm. Why?...........its mainly the unreliable climate that makes secure planning impossible....... and most 'local' bees are just plain 'difficult'.

 

[mbc]

Thanks for replying, still unclear wether there's more imports to homegrown queens in your own operation but that's your business, apologies if what I wrote came across as a "wilful misportrayal" of what you do, wasn't my intention at all. My original contention that only one side has "significant " vested interest is by no means "utterly false"(perhaps I should have inserted the significant bit originally ) I think it's valid looking at the replies from posters on this thread.

 

[Into the lions den]

Thanks for replying, still unclear wether there's more imports to homegrown queens in your own operation but that's your business, apologies if what I wrote came across as a "wilful misportrayal" of what you do, wasn't my intention at all. My original contention that only one side has "significant " vested interest is by no means "utterly false"(perhaps I should have inserted the significant bit originally ) I think it's valid looking at the replies from posters on this thread.

Its only confidential because some of the information would make the identification of recipients fairly straightforward and I would not wish problems onto any of them.

 

[mbc]

Its only confidential because some of the information would make the identification of recipients fairly straightforward and I would not wish problems onto any of them.

Yeah I've got that, my suspicion is the numbers of queens involved are many many times more of the imports compared to the home produced and therefore interesting that you chose to reply with your "homegrown" hat on, apologies if this isn't the case.

 

[B+.]

my suspicion is the numbers of queens involved are many many times more of the imports compared to the home produced and therefore interesting that you chose to reply with your "homegrown" hat on,

I can't see how thats possible if he produced 2,500 to 3,000 queens in the UK.

 

[mbc]

I can't see how thats possible if he produced 2,500 to 3,000 queens in the UK.

"but there are a number of SINGLE ORDERS out there this year for imported queens exceeding 1000. "

 

[colinc]

Natives can’t produce the crops, don’t build up the same, and are more time consuming. There is a market for consistently calm, heavy yielding and fecund bees which is keeping 16 people in a job and a home. Not to mention the suppliers of Queens and Nucs he is obviously supplying and supporting in the process their jobs and no doubt homes.
ITLD is supplying a demand that cannot be covered with U.K. reared queens, although he has that covered too for the smaller market that want it.
I am not sure why you are pursuing him as he has answered your questions but is not going to say more, he has already stated that.

Why keep pursuing it?

Maybe you are just following the title thread and trying to find the can with the worms.
I suspect the birds have eaten them by now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[B+.]

"but there are a number of SINGLE ORDERS out there this year for imported queens exceeding 1000. "

my suspicion is the numbers of queens involved are many many times more of the imports compared to the home produced and therefore interesting that you chose to reply with your "homegrown" hat on,

1,000 is a lot less than 3,000. That's nowhere near the many many times more you said above

 

[Poly Hive]

Some of you are looking pretty rude here. Time to back of maybe?

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

Some of you are looking pretty rude here. Time to back of maybe?

PH

Don't worry Pete. I can handle myself if I have to.

To the thread in general........

One the subject of single orders for 1000+ queens? Where did I say *I* had received all those?

I do happen to have a lot of trade connections and information is currency in a trade network. There are people out there who might be horrified if they knew that I knew about what they are doing.....

I do not spend a couple of hours each day on email/internet/phone for no good reason.

 

[mbc]

Don't worry Pete. I can handle myself if I have to.

To the thread in general........

One the subject of single orders for 1000+ queens? Where did I say *I* had received all those?

I do happen to have a lot of trade connections and information is currency in a trade network. There are people out there who might be horrified if they knew that I knew about what they are doing.....

I do not spend a couple of hours each day on email/internet/phone for no good reason.

No one said "you" did say the 1000+ orders were for queens you're importing, it was answering the "how is it possible " question with a quote from the thread, seemed clear enough to me.

 

[B+.]

Sometimes, it amazes me how quickly people can reverse their position on this forum.

 

[madasafish]

I change my time on some subjects three times a day if not more... That means the chances are I'll be correct at least once.

Edit : and if I don't change it, SWMBO sometimes changes it for me.......


"
“I feel I change my mind all the time. And I sort of feel that's your responsibility as a person, as a human being – to constantly be updating your positions on as many things as possible. And if you don't contradict yourself on a regular basis, then you're not thinking.”
― Malcolm Gladwell"

 

[mbc]

Sometimes, it amazes me how quickly people can reverse their position on this forum.

Well done!
You've shown humility changing your position on how possible it is for one of the premier importers of queens in the country to import more than they home raise, bravo!

 

[B+.]

Well done!
You've shown humility changing your position on how possible it is for one of the premier importers of queens in the country to import more than they home raise, bravo!

That isn't what I said

 

[Poly Hive]

Clarity clarity where art thou?

As he contemplates another pool of mud.

PH

 

[Into the lions den]

Premier importer of queens lol. Not even close.

Don't run off speculating about stuff like that just because I have the confidence in our systems to be happy to stick my head up in the air for you to shoot at.

How many actually come in each year? No-one actually knows. Beebase statistics are ONLY the ones with TRACES. Whilst reporting and compliance has undoubtedly sharply improved the figure there will still be nowhere close to the full amount. I have posted plenty on that subject before.

Meeting the full demand from UK producers is just not possible, especially on timing. Imports WILL continue. You might get some influence trying to influence procedures and sourcing but an outright ban ain't going to happen. Make it possible and not too onerous to work with the due processes or all that happens is they still come anyway and no-one has any control.

Selling an item when there is a glut and seeking to buy in a dearth is the consequence of the way anti import people want the market to operate. You HAVE to find sources with available supplies when you need them......so not in a matching phase of season with us.

ps....we sometime export too btw.

FWIW...the authorities should be looking for those bringing in shipments without papers, not, as happened last year, giving folk with a few imports a hard time, when they were openly declared, available for inspection, and had certificates. One guy got a torrid time about a few queens from Germany, because the TRACES document was in German, and it is stated that it should be provided in the language of the destination state. What nit picking. No wonder folk just say not to bother and stick them in the post. They often make it really hard when doing it correctly, and do not seem to follow up on intelligence about grey imports. Maybe its just too difficult?

So, I export queens to a non English speaking state. I get TRACES documents...supplied in English. Go figure.

 

[Into the lions den]

I am sometimes asked (by some on this forum) about why I don't just overwinter the late queens in their mini boxes and use those for spring sales rather than imported. You are kidding ae you not?

The fact that some dedicated individuals who do not cost the activity, or account for the failures in that costing, can overwinter a small number does not make it a viable process.

UK queens are 30 quid and a little more...and that's the cheaper ones.....makes a spring queen through winter a very expensive baby, we find that we are pushed to get 25% through in mating boxes. So would need to put at least 5000 Apideas into winter to be even half sure of being able to supply the 1250 queens needed in April alone. With the price we could get for them in autumn taken into account (they are not free, they have a value which exceeds production cost) this makes a spring queen overwintered for sale have a financial hit on us of over £100. I can get our own stock grafted further south and back here in April for me to sell at £22.

I doubt if some will understand, or indeed want to understand, those figures.

Then there are the customers.
Want a fresh new seasons queen or an overwintered one that will be a year old during the season (with the attendant increased management issues)? Oh and btw...the young one is cheaper.