Can of worms here.

[SDM]

We don't lack the areas/Islands, what we lack are enough people that can be bothered to do something about it, same as using II, very few can be bothered.

Or possibly enough people who can agree WHAT to do about it.

 

[B+.]

Or possibly enough people who can agree WHAT to do about it.

As HM said earlier, you just need to use II

 

[SDM]

As HM said earlier, you just need to use II

Next year maybe, it's the only way forward.

 

[DanBee]

Hi Dan, There is no such thing as a hybrid bee. A hybrid is the result of crossing two closely related species. i.e A horse and a donkey to create a mule or a lion and a tiger to create a tigon.
We only cross sub-species of bees. The are all aphis mellifera . They are not hybrids they are mongrels. A true hybrid is normally sterile and cannot be bred from. Buckfast bees are just a complicated mongrel. We cannot cross AM bees from Europe and Africa with Asian honey bees as the strains are too different. If the people at APHA do not know that there is no such thing as a hybrid honeybee what hope do we have???

Hi Brian - I think you misunderstood; I merely flagged that the words 'hybrid' and 'hybridised' were loaded terms in this debate, and asked that they be removed. Thanks for adding 'mongrel' to the melting pot, that's an even more loaded term: mongrel - saint or sinner?

Whether they are used correctly is another argument, a bit like how 'race', 'strain', and 'subspecies' are often used interchangeably. Seemingly, with the focus in bee breeding on sub-species of Am, 'hybrid' has passed into common use at strictly too low a level to describe aspects of intermixing sub-species, as you point out.

On a different but related tack, there was a recent lengthy series by Dorian Pritchard on honeybee genetics published in one of the magazines. I found the technical aspects far too dense for a lay audience - bordering on unreadable - and was left with the distinct impression of a subject-matter expert selectively throwing around terminology that he is confident his non-technical audience cannot challenge in order to further his own preconceptions, or perhaps merely to massage his ego. I think it was in the BIBBA magazine.

 

[maddydog]

As HM said earlier, you just need to use II

I think it'll be much more common place in the future

 

[Into the lions den]

I think it'll be much more common place in the future

I actually hope not, at least not too much.

Yes, in proper broad enough based scientifically conducted breeding programmes, but its coming into fashion the way it is among relatively small scale beekeepers is a seriously fast track to inbreeding problems.

Bee health and solid brood patterns depend on richness of genetics, even within a race. Narrowing the gene pool equals trouble ahead.....don't know when or from what cause....but narrow base equals widespread susceptibility to same circumstances. Whether you talk about CCD recently or IOW way back.....better diversity may have alleviated these problems somewhat.

 

[maddydog]

I actually hope not, at least not too much.

Yes, in proper broad enough based scientifically conducted breeding programmes, but its coming into fashion the way it is among relatively small scale beekeepers is a seriously fast track to inbreeding problems.

Entirely agree, another reason why banning imports is maybe not the way forwards? Coming together of like-minded small scale queen breeders probably wouldn't be a bad idea to share methods and genetic material?

 

[DanBee]

I actually hope not, at least not too much.

Yes, in proper broad enough based scientifically conducted breeding programmes, but its coming into fashion the way it is among relatively small scale beekeepers is a seriously fast track to inbreeding problems.

Bee health and solid brood patterns depend on richness of genetics, even within a race. Narrowing the gene pool equals trouble ahead.....don't know when or from what cause....but narrow base equals widespread susceptibility to same circumstances. Whether you talk about CCD recently or IOW way back.....better diversity may have alleviated these problems somewhat.

Yes, entirely. e.g. Keith Delaplane's recent work on diversity of matings leading to more robust colonies - didn't they conclude that the ideal was around 30 not-closely-related drone partners per queen?

Entirely agree, another reason why banning imports is maybe not the way forwards? Coming together of like-minded small scale queen breeders probably wouldn't be a bad idea to share methods and genetic material?

This is why I feel there is a need for a breeding framework that can be applied in this country - records, sizing/scoping of breeding programmes, techniques and practicalities - regardless of the particular bees or outcomes.

For example, I note that the first question asked at beebreed.eu is race, then much data access and information/advice appears common beyond that...

 

[Hivemaker.]

Yes, entirely. e.g. Keith Delaplane's recent work on diversity of matings leading to more robust colonies - didn't they conclude that the ideal was around 30 not-closely-related drone partners per queen?

Greater genetic diversity can be easily achieved using instrumental insemination than can be achieved with queens mating naturally.

 

[foghornleghorn]

I actually hope not, at least not too much.

Yes, in proper broad enough based scientifically conducted breeding programmes, but its coming into fashion the way it is among relatively small scale beekeepers is a seriously fast track to inbreeding problems.

Bee health and solid brood patterns depend on richness of genetics, even within a race. Narrowing the gene pool equals trouble ahead.....don't know when or from what cause....but narrow base equals widespread susceptibility to same circumstances. Whether you talk about CCD recently or IOW way back.....better diversity may have alleviated these problems somewhat.

Out of curiosity when you're selecting you're breeders, how much diversity do you try and get in. Eg would it just be different lines within say German carnica or would you try to have Austrian or Slovenian lines also?

 

[B+.]

For example, I note that the first question asked at beebreed.eu is race, then much data access and information/advice appears common beyond that...

Of course. If you're going to look at a population, you need to tell it which population you're interested in

 

[Goran]

When mentioned carnies..
We tested some slovenian queens, noticable our queens had more explosive spring buildup. Slovenian had some too slow start, later they came up, but for our early essential forages was unacceptable ( till 20th April I have to have at least 7-8 frames of sealed brood, with them that wasn't quite right). Later on I found in some literature also mentioned that slovenian had slower start than ours. Intriguing, also said that german carnica is a lot different than ours - some odd for me, had no chance to see in real.

 

[Into the lions den]

Out of curiosity when you're selecting you're breeders, how much diversity do you try and get in. Eg would it just be different lines within say German carnica or would you try to have Austrian or Slovenian lines also?

Lots.

No German lines here but we do have Austrian and are trialling Slovenian again after poor experiences in the past.

For our PRODUCTION queens we want as many lines as possible in the drone pool, so your queen comes from a specific line, but she is open mated to lots. We do drone saturate the area by having all our adjacent apiaries filled with good stock but cannot control what others place in the area.

We raise queens from a mix of our own best stock and from bought in lines. Jolanta has around 30 colonies, mostly unrelated, at the breeding unit, and they act as grafting mother, or starters and finishers. All throw drones into the pot as do an even larger number of colonies in adjacent apiaries.

If you are a dedicated breeder of a line then you will think this is a mess.....but the proof of the pudding is the results. It works and we have no issues with the 'aggressive crosses' nonsense.

So...if you buy a carnica queen from us it is going to be from one origin...usually our own,or a line from northern Italy that is very good, or Austria, but she will have mated to a variety of carnica stock, and probably with a bit of Amm and Buckfast thrown in. Makes for great brood patterns and rapid build up, but don't expect to do serious line breeding from the offspring, at least not until you have done some rigorous selection.

If you are not fussed and just let the offspring open mate they make good bees but we would not describe them as any special breed.

 

[Michael Palmer]

If you are a dedicated breeder of a line then you will think this is a mess.....but the proof of the pudding is the results. It works and we have no issues with the 'aggressive crosses' nonsense.

I do the same and I agree completely.

 

[Beefriendly]

The scale of your two breeding set ups is way way beyond what any hobbyist could conceive of.
It's the reason why I purchase queens from known good breeders and allow myself to breed one generation from them....beyond that (in my area) they turn aggressive fast as they regress to local mongrel phenotype.

 

[maddydog]

The scale of your two breeding set ups is way way beyond what any hobbyist could conceive of.
It's the reason why I purchase queens from known good breeders and allow myself to breed one generation from them....beyond that (in my area) they turn aggressive fast as they regress to local mongrel phenotype.

I'm guessing still no joy with isolated sites? Has drone flooding had any positive impact or do your queens still regress?

 

[Beefriendly]

I'm guessing still no joy with isolated sites? Has drone flooding had any positive impact or do your queens still regress?

Nope, at each potential site I easily found another person beekeeping keeping local bees. Offers of free queens were met with suspicion. And both sites are heavily immigrated during heather season.
So my queens still regress.
Alas a couple of beekeepers have moved apiary sites into the vicinity around me; apparently they get great queens mated in this region......yes from my bloody drones....
It will backfire on one of them who is a local bee fanatic....soon he will wonder why his bees are turning tan coloured.

 

[mickbees23]

I am a member of ClevelandBKA, Cleveland is not on the list, if they can't be bothered with that small detail of a BBKA member association then I won't bother filling in the survey as it will not be a true representation if I chose another area.

 

[Poly Hive]

FWIW people.

I bought from ITLD some 10 years ago now and basically stopped lighting my smoker. I bought again from him some 4 years ago to boost the level of his input and can honestly say the bees were and are lovely to work and I will mention as it was so spectacular the 230 lbs of comb honey from one colony working lime.

All I can add to that is that what ever he is doing works for me.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

So, this months BBKA mag has a small article on p109 about a PhD project looking into potential differences between Amm's and other sub-species involving national survey and wanting volunteers. Wonder if there is any relationship/input into the questions asked in this one?