Can of worms here.

[B+.]

So, I export queens to a non English speaking state. I get TRACES documents...supplied in English. Go figure.

I usually receive documentation in English and German/Dutch.
Its not us that do things properly that are the problem (although we make an easier target for those with an axe to grind)

 

[Beefriendly]

Then there are the customers.
Want a fresh new seasons queen or an overwintered one that will be a year old during the season (with the attendant increased management issues)? Oh and btw...the young one is cheaper.

Pedigree has a say in it. At least one Danish breeder sells overwintered island mated queens at higher prices than his summer ones. Means you have a great queen early in the season, rather than waiting for one in late July/August. Where you have the job (and worry) of getting your expensive "pedigree" queen through the winter.

 

[Into the lions den]

Pedigree has a say in it. At least one Danish breeder sells overwintered island mated queens at higher prices than his summer ones. Means you have a great queen early in the season, rather than waiting for one in late July/August. Where you have the job (and worry) of getting your expensive "pedigree" queen through the winter.

Not quite what I was talking about, as getting a good queen through winter is actually easy in a full nuc or even colony. Its ones in small units that are just for spring sale I was talking about.

Overwintered breeder queens, as opposed simply to production queens, are a result of the breeders art and extensive selection. They can cost upwards of 250 Euros (can be a LOT more) and are worth it.

 

[Beefriendly]

They can cost upwards of 250 Euros (can be a LOT more) and are worth it.

That was my point and 175 euros rather than 250 was the figure I have seen quoted... Selected breeder queens are a LOT more than that. And having bought some and bred from them (overwintered)....they are definitely worth the money.
You were suggesting that the way you run your operation overwintered queens weren't economically viable, which is fair comment. And no that's not a hidden dig.

 

[B+.]

Selected breeder queens are a LOT more than that. And having bought some and bred from them (overwintered)....they are definitely worth the money..

......but....why wouldn't you test and select them yourself?

 

[Beefriendly]

No control over matings im my area makes breeding more than one generation from decent stock me a big no no. So pointless testing
2 generations and they are back to 75% mongrel.
And I'm not interested in going the II route.

 

[B+.]

No control over matings im my area makes breeding more than one generation from decent stock me a big no no. So pointless testing
2 generations and they are back to 75% mongrel.
And I'm not interested in going the II route.

ok. Thanks for the honest answer. I suppose its the same for most people.

 

[Finman]

.2 years ago I thought to measure degree of hygienic bees from my yard.
Then I read about Australian project, where they had bred 12 years hygienic bees.

Best queens were sent to Tasmanian mating station by 20 professional beekeepers.

I saw how big job is the breeding, and hundreds of colonies to give genepool.

So I decided, that let it be. IT is not my mission.

One of the most honest breeding project report, what I have seen in internet.

 

[Finman]

.
Whole my life I have had about 20 hives. I have noticed several times, the if I try to breed my own strain, the result is inbreeding. Only way is to buy every year 3 new mated queens from orofessional queen sellers and what are their queens. Mostly they are not good at all.

I have had 30 years black bee mongrels. It is the last alternative what I can imagine.

Every village has now in Britain "local beebreeding project" for each bee race. It is pure hobby. I cannot say more about that activity. Same is happening in Sweden and in Finland.


.

 

[B+.]

Then I read about Australian project, where they had bred 12 years hygienic bees.

I think this is a bit misleading. You don't have to wait 12 years before you see any progress. You'll see progress pretty quickly (depending on the stock you start with). Then, each year it will get better.

 

[Finman]

Then, each year it will get better.

IT does not go that way in a small genepool. Inbreeding hits after 3 years and then you must start from beginning.

And during last 30 years I have changed the whole genepool within 5 years.

Selecting strictly for one feature looses easily other good features.
Perhaps nosema sensitivity hits in your apiary and that's it. Perhaps huge swarming hits into you genepool.

Each year better... That is not true. Each year declining towards average is the truth.

It is like aberage queens in double brood. An average queen needs only one brood box. It does not lay more even if you take the excluder off.

My first criterium of queen is that it must lay two boxes. So it can store 120 kg honey in each hive tower.
.

.

 

[B+.]

IT does not go that way in a small genepool. Inbreeding hits after 3 years and then you must start from beginning.

You spoke about a breeding project in Australia Finman. I have to assume they had a large enough genepool to test, select and propagate properly. Under these circumstances, you will see steady progress and no inbreeding.

 

[maddydog]

You spoke about a breeding project in Australia Finman.

Is that the one that has been wound up due to lack of orders?

B+ without fresh genetic material from other groups do you think your breeding program would be as successful? I seem to remember finman suggesting a minimum of 70 colonies would be needed to avoid inbreeding.

 

[B+.]

B+ without fresh genetic material from other groups do you think your breeding program would be as successful? I seem to remember finman suggesting a minimum of 70 colonies would be needed to avoid inbreeding.

Absolutely not.
I'm only able to do what I do because I have access to good stock from other breeders. We share what we have.
I am only one member of a huge group.

 

[Finman]

You spoke about a breeding project in Australia Finman. I .

I spoke about my 20 hive beekeeping during last 30 years when black mongrels did not mixed matings any more.

It is not possible that every 20 hive owner starts to breed his own stock and buy insemination tools. Such dreaming. 96% is 2 hive owners in Britain.


That is the negative side of breeding efforts. Quite few will succeed in their breeding job.
.
I know lots of beekeepers, whose breeding habbits are quite rubbish. For example they continue swarm queens or use emergency cells.
.

 

[B+.]

I spoke about my 20 hive beekeeping during last 30 years when black mongrels did not mixed matings any more.

.

I suppose I must have imagined it then
(https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=622981&postcount=128)

 

[Finman]

? I seem to remember finman suggesting a minimum of 70 colonies would be needed to avoid inbreeding.

I have not suggested that. I have no idea, what it might be.

If you read Russian Bee project in USA, which has been 20 years, how big the breeding genepool with strains is. It is huge. And varroa problems are getting worse.

But the researched truth is that even beekeepers do not know, are the colonies hybrids or real strains.

 

[maddydog]

Absolutely not.
I'm only able to do what I do because I have access to good stock from other breeders. We share what we have.
I am only one member of a huge group.

Let's hope that ITLD is correct and imports don't get banned. My own queen rearing (admittedly not breeding) efforts have produced strong bees which survive well and produce decent crops but are often unpleasant to handle.

 

[maddydog]

I have not suggested that. I have no idea, what it might be.
.

Apologies finman

 

[Beefriendly]

My own queen rearing (admittedly not breeding) efforts have produced strong bees which survive well and produce decent crops but are often unpleasant to handle.

The biggest eye opener I ever had was comparing (in the same apiary) the honey yields from hives with decently bred queens with my local mongrels. Even making hives equivalent in numbers by adding extra frames of brood and bees to strengthen the locals up the imported queen;'s hives bee levels had little effect on the result.
I can only speak for the locals I tested in my own area, others may find different.