Buckfast F2 .... are they as bad as I'm reading about on the web??

[RichardK]

I'm interested in getting an F1 Buckfast mated queen just to give them a go. However, everything I read about their offspring (F2) is that they are frequently of a less agreeable disposition shall we say. You can see I'm planning ahead....

For those of you who keep Buckfast, is that reputation (F2's) warranted in your opinion?

 

[madasafish]

I have Buckfast F2,F3,F4.F5 queens and bees.


I would say 80% plus are perfectly placid.

Of course, if you have local aggressive bees and your virgin queen mates with the local drones, you are likely to get aggressive offspring - as any competent beekeeper knows. I try to raise lots of drones from my best colonies to even the odds in my favour. (My local bees are horrible). Any Q I rear which has aggressive offspring in a mating nuc - mine stay in one for at least 4 weeks after mating - is culled.

So in my view the people who complain either have an axe to grind or have local aggressive bees. Or both. Or don't cull Queens with aggressive offspring. Or sell Qs soon after mating so they have no idea of the temper of their offspring.

But then I am a hobbyist so know not very much.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm interested in getting an F1 Buckfast mated queen just to give them a go. However, everything I read about their offspring (F2) is that they are frequently of a less agreeable disposition shall we say. You can see I'm planning ahead....

For those of you who keep Buckfast, is that reputation (F2's) warranted in your opinion?

Mine have always been fine
I’ve had my Buckies from Hivemaker and BS. I had a German queen but she wasnt up to scratch but I have a daughter from her this year.
I was pleased with the Carnies queens I had from B+ but sold all my bees when I got ill. I wish I’d kept them but I was convinced of my imminent death.

 

[ericbeaumont]

is that reputation (F2's) warranted in your opinion?

No.

I know of a beekeeper who bought Buckfast from BHP Queens (aka Ged Marshall) from the time he started beekeeping; he got to about the eighth daughter before he noticed a slight decline in temper (and that probably marginal, given the previous sweet seven).

I bought a Ged Marshall queen once and it did what it was supposed to do; since then the spread of Buckfast in our area gives (generally) big colonies of good temper, so I've no real need to buy.

Doesn't matter what you have in the box, whether expensive or free from the sky: if temper is marginal, get rid of her, unite to one better and split later.

 

[RichardK]

No.

I know of a beekeeper who bought Buckfast from BHP Queens (aka Ged Marshall) from the time he started beekeeping; he got to about the eighth daughter before he noticed a slight decline in temper (and that probably marginal, given the previous sweet seven).

I bought a Ged Marshall queen once and it did what it was supposed to do; since then the spread of Buckfast in our area gives (generally) big colonies of good temper, so I've no real need to buy.

Doesn't matter what you have in the box, whether expensive or free from the sky: if temper is marginal, get rid of her, unite to one better and split later.

I don't have an issue with aggressivity, although they can be more or less defensive. That said lately, it's been steaming hot here with the last couple of weekends the temperature pushing 40C so I can understand the occasional tetchiness. To put it into perspective they are beside the veggie plot and just below a swimming pool (terraced hillside so a good 2 metres above the hives) and to date we've not had any problems but it is constantly on my mind.

The thing is after all those YouTube videos with people inspecting hives with no gloves etc.... I fancy seeing how true that is!

How docile are yours and illness / problem wise, any views on how they compare to local mongrel varieties?

 

[RichardK]

I have Buckfast F2,F3,F4.F5 queens and bees.


I would say 80% plus are perfectly placid.

Of course, if you have local aggressive bees and your virgin queen mates with the local drones, you are likely to get aggressive offspring - as any competent beekeeper knows. I try to raise lots of drones from my best colonies to even the odds in my favour. (My local bees are horrible). Any Q I rear which has aggressive offspring in a mating nuc - mine stay in one for at least 4 weeks after mating - is culled.

So in my view the people who complain either have an axe to grind or have local aggressive bees. Or both. Or don't cull Queens with aggressive offspring. Or sell Qs soon after mating so they have no idea of the temper of their offspring.

But then I am a hobbyist so know not very much.

Thanks for that. The reputation doesn't make much sense to me. Were it true then all wild bees would be horrible which they are not. I assume it's a big like a pedigree / mongrel dog argument.

The fact that you're at F5 and in general all is fine is encouraging - thanks.

 

[RichardK]

Mine have always been fine
I’ve had my Buckies from Hivemaker and BS. I had a German queen but she wasnt up to scratch but I have a daughter from her this year.
I was pleased with the Carnies queens I had from B+ but sold all my bees when I got ill. I wish I’d kept them but I was convinced of my imminent death.

I'm glad it all worked out in the end though

 

[B+.]

I'm interested in getting an F1 Buckfast mated queen just to give them a go. However, everything I read about their offspring (F2) is that they are frequently of a less agreeable disposition shall we say. You can see I'm planning ahead....

For those of you who keep Buckfast, is that reputation (F2's) warranted in your opinion?

The problem with this question is that there is no objective scale. Everyone will answer from their own perspective If they're used to Buckfast, they'll tend to answer positively. Not because the bees are any better, or worse, than they were originally, but, because they've made an investment in a particular line. I'm no different, although I do have the benefit of having tested the best of what breeders have to offer.
I had Buckfasts from Brother Adam, then Peter Donovan when Brother Adam retired. I've also had Buckfasts from Peter Stoffen at Friedrichskoog. They vary enormously but are generally pretty good in their first generation.
The question then becomes: do you have the means to propagate them as Buckfasts? If not, the rest is academic because they'll gradually become more like the norm for your area as the generations pass by.
I made the decision to specialise in carnica and participate in a recognised breeding programme - so I only breed from good quality Parent stock.
Whatever you choose to keep, I would say: there is no virtue in maintaining mongrels. No gardener would ever sow saved seed from an F1. That isn't their purpose. They're meant to be used and you buy new ones to grow when you're finished with them. However, the haplo-diploid mating system of honeybees means the drones do have a longer term value. A drone receives all of his genetic material from his mother and passes those 16 chromosomes to the daughters of queens he mates with, This suggests that you should probably stick with whatever is common in your area unless you've a mind to change the performance you're getting from them. Then, go back to your breeder and buy new F1's.

 

[RichardK]

The problem with this question is that there is no objective scale. Everyone will answer from their own perspective If they're used to Buckfast, they'll tend to answer positively. Not because the bees are any better, or worse, than they were originally, but, because they've made an investment in a particular line. I'm no different, although I do have the benefit of having tested the best of what breeders have to offer.
I had Buckfasts from Brother Adam, then Peter Donovan when Brother Adam retired. I've also had Buckfasts from Peter Stoffen at Friedrichskoog. They vary enormously but are generally pretty good in their first generation.
The question then becomes: do you have the means to propagate them as Buckfasts? If not, the rest is academic because they'll gradually become more like the norm for your area as the generations pass by.
I made the decision to specialise in carnica and participate in a recognised breeding programme - so I only breed from good quality Parent stock.
Whatever you choose to keep, I would say: there is no virtue in maintaining mongrels. No gardener would ever sow saved seed from an F1. That isn't their purpose. They're meant to be used and you buy new ones to grow when you're finished with them. However, the haplo-diploid mating system of honeybees means the drones do have a longer term value. A drone receives all of his genetic material from his mother and passes those 16 chromosomes to the daughters of queens he mates with, This suggests that you should probably stick with whatever is common in your area unless you've a mind to change the performance you're getting from them. Then, go back to your breeder and buy new F1's.

Good answer. The general consensus on forums here in France seems to be that the step from the purchased F1 to a home reared F2 is big. Broadly put, people slag off F2's as being angry. I accept there has to be a change in genetics with each offspring and bearing in mind we live on the edge of forest mating will in all likelihood be with the local genetics.

In answer to your question, no I do not have the means to propagate them as Buckfasts, but I do have the means to raise their descendants, mated with whatever. Should the view be that Buckfast F2's are generally bad humoured though, I'd stick with my local mongrels! That said, that's not the view I'm getting so far.

 

[B+.]

Good answer. The general consensus on forums here in France seems to be that the step from the purchased F1 to a home reared F2 is big. Broadly put, people slag off F2's as being angry. I accept there has to be a change in genetics with each offspring and bearing in mind we live on the edge of forest mating will in all likelihood be with the local genetics.

In answer to your question, no I do not have the means to propagate them as Buckfasts, but I do have the means to raise their descendants, mated with whatever. Should the view be that Buckfast F2's are generally bad humoured though, I'd stick with my local mongrels! That said, that's not the view I'm getting so far.

As a breeder, I would never raise F2's. The most I would ever do is F1 and that is only because the drones are haploid and receive all 16 chromosomes from their mother.
The situation becomes more complex in subsequent generations but, generally speaking, the effect is to dilute whatever you started with.

 

[RichardK]

As a breeder, I would never raise F2's. The most I would ever do is F1 and that is only because the drones are haploid and receive all 16 chromosomes from their mother.
The situation becomes more complex in subsequent generations but, generally speaking, the effect is to dilute whatever you started with.

I'm assuming when you say breeder, you mean commercially? If so I could imagine that offering F2's might not be that popular a 'product' and could have a knock on effect on reputation.

 

[SWEET]

Guess you'll need to test the local bees and see how it plays out. I've had super placid (BS) hives turn into hellish hives after they replaced queen, but then again this can be resolved (if it's really an issue). I've a few local hives (from old trees/swarms) that are so so, a few open mated BS F2/3 that seem great!, some F1 BF that are not so great depending on the weather/me etc. Personally think too many factors at play regards labelling a hive defensive but; each inspection I'll note temper/running/following/weather from 1-5 (5 bad), after 3 inspections and weather pending, hives with poor scores might need looking at, usually they settle down and all is good. Everyone also has differing views on defensiveness, running/following are the main issues for me. Personally i'll buy/use as many F1 BS as possible, it's a decent starting point causing less issues down the line.

 

[RichardK]

Guess you'll need to test the local bees and see how it plays out. I've had super placid (BS) hives turn into hellish hives after they replaced queen, but then again this can be resolved (if it's really an issue). I've a few local hives (from old trees/swarms) that are so so, a few open mated BS F2/3 that seem great!, some F1 BF that are not so great depending on the weather/me etc. Personally think too many factors at play regards labelling a hive defensive but; each inspection I'll note temper/running/following/weather from 1-5 (5 bad), after 3 inspections and weather pending, hives with poor scores might need looking at, usually they settle down and all is good. Everyone also has differing views on defensiveness, running/following are the main issues for me. Personally i'll buy/use as many F1 BS as possible, it's a decent starting point causing less issues down the line.

Thanks for that. I like you inspection rating system. I'm not looking to do this due to any particular issues with existing hives, however, I do see a split coming up which gives me a perfect opportunity to try something different whilst ensuring the hive goes into winter fully prepared.

 

[madasafish]

The thing is after all those YouTube videos with people inspecting hives with no gloves etc.... I fancy seeing how true that is!

No gloves is my method of choice. I suppose about 90% of my beekeeping is like that.

But I mentor others and help with aggressive hives so sometimes I Have to wear gloves (or take a huge (15+) number of stings - which is unlikely to be safe for me in the long term. )

 

[pargyle]

. Or sell Qs soon after mating so they have no idea of the temper of their offspring.

But then I am a hobbyist so know not very much.

Yes ... that's a crime in my book but I know people who do just raise queens and sell them as soon as there;'s a sign of eggs (and even sooner in some cases ...). Not good practice in my view.

 

[BugsInABox]

they'll gradually become more like the norm

Isn’t this debate still open - if hybrid vigour is a thing then the shift in behaviour could be sudden not gradual.

 

[RichardK]

Isn’t this debate still open - if hybrid vigour is a thing then the shift in behaviour could be sudden not gradual.

We're all mongrels I guess and we're all different with strong points and not so strong points. What I'm keen to understand though is that all F2's are not complete gits...although like people, I accept that some will be! From peoples kind responses above, I know the answer now.

 

[B+.]

Isn’t this debate still open - if hybrid vigour is a thing then the shift in behaviour could be sudden not gradual.

Hybrid vigour is only a thing when you are talking about crossing two inbred lines.

 

[drdrday]

Good answer. The general consensus on forums here in France seems to be that the step from the purchased F1 to a home reared F2 is big. Broadly put, people slag off F2's as being angry.

My original bees, had a 2018 Buckfast queen (Anthea). The next generation (Buttercup & Crocus) have been just as gentle and productive as their mother. I'm just rearing a third generation (daughters of Buttercup) right now, so in a few weeks I'll find out about the third generation.

I'm a geneticist by training and to be honest I find the whole talk of claims about bee strains to be on rather shaky ground. Unless you're using II to raise queens (or have a truly isolated apiary) you have absolutely no control over half of the genes of any of your bees. Your F1 queen was no doubt locally mated wherever you got her from, and from then on it's as much to do with the drone genetics you're surrounded by as whatever strain of bee you supposedly started off with.

Only having kept bees for three years now, I don't have too much to compare them with, except three swarms that I caught this year. The swarms haven't been any more aggressive but they're definitely more 'runny' on the comb.

Personally I think it's best to judge each queen and her daughters on an individual basis, rather than trying to generalise. One F2 queen's offspring might be angels, whilst another's might be little devils. Just judge each individually when deciding which lines you do or don't want to keep.

 

[B+.]

My original bees, had a 2018 Buckfast queen (Anthea). The next generation (Buttercup & Crocus) have been just as gentle and productive as their mother. I'm just rearing a third generation (daughters of Buttercup) right now, so in a few weeks I'll find out about the third generation.

I'm a geneticist by training and to be honest I find the whole talk of claims about bee strains to be on rather shaky ground. Unless you're using II to raise queens (or have a truly isolated apiary) you have absolutely no control over half of the genes of any of your bees. Your F1 queen was no doubt locally mated wherever you got her from, and from then on it's as much to do with the drone genetics you're surrounded by as whatever strain of bee you supposedly started off with.

Only having kept bees for three years now, I don't have too much to compare them with, except three swarms that I caught this year. The swarms haven't been any more aggressive but they're definitely more 'runny' on the comb.

Personally I think it's best to judge each queen and her daughters on an individual basis, rather than trying to generalise. One F2 queen's offspring might be angels, whilst another's might be little devils. Just judge each individually when deciding which lines you do or don't want to keep.

You're almost right: the F1 queen is a product of it's parents mating. Not the local drones. These impact the quality of her workers. So, the queen and her drones are a product of the queens parents. If you control the mating using island mating stations or instrumental insemination, you have the basis of a breeding programme. If you go further, and add a standard assessment protocol and a method of determining value, you can make progress generation after generation.
If you'd care to check out my twitter page, you'll see this is what I (and others) do. I've attached an article by Dr Hoppe which gives you an overview of the progress of the programme to date