Insulated Hives?

[thorn]

CCD in the UK has never happened!

However, lazy British journalists, having heard of the American experience, and being tasked with writing an article about bees, are happy to assume that it has.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

CCD in the UK has never happened!

However, lazy British journalists, having heard of the American experience, and being tasked with writing an article about bees, are happy to assume that it has.

....First off I would like to say Happy (day late ) US Thanksgivings Day from this side of the pond.

We celebrate that back on the 4th of July

I did notice simply by typing in "colony collapse disorder Britain" on Google search that the arrival of CCD there dates back to 2007 at least and there are numerous articles about it , so apparently not just an American scapegoat

You may have found something on google - but CCD has never 'arrived' here, we haven't experienced the catastrophic mass collapse of apiaries as has happened over the pond the articles were just down to lazy journalism and the obligatory hand wringing some seem to revel in. Read those 'articles' and try and find actual examples of this mythical CCD so yes, just an american scapegoat, we don't need to find excuses for poor animal husbandry.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

However, lazy British journalists, having heard of the American experience, and being tasked with writing an article about bees, are happy to assume that it has.

So sorry .
I don't read long posts.

Hmm, yes, been there before haven't we?

 

[BangerterHarp]

The first thing to learn is "I don't know".

The first question to ask is "how do I learn?"

Blanket statements are usually wrong when it comes to bees.

I concur with your thoughts on learning. But since I've apologized for stepping on sensitive toes already I will leave the were it lies.

 

[BangerterHarp]

We celebrate that back on the 4th of July


You may have found something on google - but CCD has never 'arrived' here, we haven't experienced the catastrophic mass collapse of apiaries as has happened over the pond the articles were just down to lazy journalism and the obligatory hand wringing some seem to revel in. Read those 'articles' and try and find actual examples of this mythical CCD so yes, just an american scapegoat, we don't need to find excuses for poor animal husbandry.

Good to know. Surely , you are not saying that I should disregard what I read on the internet or see on TV as possibly false ??? (smiling and giggling at the thought) I suppose there is no need for anyone getting defensive. As you may recall if you were able to stay awake through my initial post , I quipped about the fantastical beast which is called CCD. I certainly don't believe in the mythical beast here in the US nor is my imagination broad enough to believe said beasty has invaded Britain. I was trying to make a polite point. Paranoia and fingering pointing might just be more universal than some would like to admit even if "it's lazy jounalism".

Surely Mr. Ashton from an article in the Telegraph- February 29 , 2019 says it best " David Aston of the British Beekeepers’ Association cautiously welcomed the report but, understandably for a man who thinks carefully and realistically about bee health and has only just seen the study, stopped short of declaring that the honeybee’s problems are now at an end. He said: ‘[The report] adds further evidence to the evolving picture that there are complex interactions taking place between a number of factors, pathogens, environmental, beekeeping practices and other stressors, which are causing honey bee losses described as CCD in the US. No single or combination of factors has satisfactorily explained CCD to date.

‘We still do not believe CCD (which is now better defined) is a cause of colony losses in the UK, however we are continuing to experience colony losses, many if not most of which can be explained."

.....I know nothing more about Mr. Ashton than what I have read in this article but he seems to have laid it out plainly enough.
Alas , as I mentioned in the closing of my initial post "Some will be angered by my comments and lash out with insults and "statistics" but I feel no matter what I could have written this would always be the case. I am simply relating what I have found to be self evident inside the scope of my limited experience and observation of the bees themselves in my specific region."

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am simply relating what I have found to be self evident inside the scope of my limited experience and observation of the bees themselves in my specific region."

And we are all truly grateful for those observations but they don’t seem to be getting us very far.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I know nothing more about Mr. Ashton

Seeing as he stands representative of that august organisation of fiddlers and dabblers, the BBKA, 'knowing nothing more' may be an apt statement.

Anyway, enough feeding for one night.........................................

 

[BangerterHarp]

And we are all truly grateful for those observations but they don’t seem to be getting us very far.

You are absolutely correct sir. Begging your pardon. I allowed myself to be led astray.

A question I have more on topic . Has anyone used mineral wool for insulation on their hives? It seems a good somewhat natural(ish) alternative insulation .I have been looking into it for a future build and have thus far found nothing that would make it harmful in any way but perhaps someone here knows otherwise.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

.... When I have finished putting up our Christmas tree to my wife's satisfaction I intend to read your recommended study of the post by DMitchell. I look forward to the education. Thanks for the recommend CVB. Almost forgot to commend you on your insulated hive. My wife liked that you called the insulated top cover a "Cosy" as did I.
..... derkm - Thank you for sharing your information here. I don't Mollycoddle our bees in any way unless you consider giving them a proper insulated home pampering. I do not treat and I do not feed sugar . The bees cannot devolve into a natural self sustaining state if I do their work for them. As I am prone to mention , perhaps to often , the best I can do for my bees is provide them with a proper home , in an appropriate environment from which they can glean the food and water they need to survive and hopefully thrive to the benefit of us both. The rest is entirely up to them. Therefore , once again in my long winded fashion , I believe that keeping our bees "coasting the plateau" is the proper course of action. Those who swarm late in our artificially induced environment would perish in the same way a late swarm would in the wild. Those who do not choose their homes wisely would suffer in the same way they would in a 3/4" (19mm) box in my environment. I look forward to reading more of your comments even if you don't write the book.
..

I fear I have given you some duff information. The person on the forum to read IS Derek Mitchell, whose forum user name is DerekM NOT DMitchell. You have one of his posts (above) on this thread.

So where's the book, Derek?

CVB

 

[Murox]

------------A question I have more on topic . Has anyone used mineral wool for insulation on their hives? It seems a good somewhat natural(ish) alternative insulation .I have been looking into it for a future build and have thus far found nothing that would make it harmful in any way but perhaps someone here knows otherwise.

Yes, I built a long hive twin wall with mineral wool in-between and tyvek for a waterproof vapour permeable barrier. Seems to work well enough around 50mm thick. I suspect poly would be more thermally effective. I would have used sheep wool but I am too mean to pay for it and too lazy to wonder for hours scavenging it from barbed wire and thorn bushes.

I've never heard of Mr Ashton either.

 

[BangerterHarp]

I have the same problem Murox. I certainly can't afford to shell out for cleaned sheep's wool and since I haven't run across a local shepherd willing to part with their wool in the range I can afford I have looked at the mineral wool as an alternative until the real thing comes along. I have built some hives out of logs , some of 1 1/2" ceder and two using wood shavings in the walls , floor and roof for insulation. One of which is surrounded with 3 1/2"s and built in the fashion of a Swedish Tragkupa with a Slovenian style beehouse roof. It has proven to be the best for the bees thus far.

 

[BangerterHarp]

Ok , CharlieVictorBravo. That explains why I didn't find what I expected to in that search. Thanks for the correction.

 

[user 6228]

I fear I have given you some duff information. The person on the forum to read IS Derek Mitchell, whose forum user name is DerekM NOT DMitchell. You have one of his posts (above) on this thread.

So where's the book, Derek?

CVB

I have a thesis to write and before the thesis are the papers and the articles and the applications for funding (which is difficult as thermofluids might as well be Greek to some who hold the purse strings ).
Did I mention that it's complex and the more I delve the more I find myself and everyone else doesn't really know what's going on in there.
And to top it all I never liked writing essays at school or Uni.

 

[BangerterHarp]

But should we keep our bees "Climbing the mountain" or "Coasting the Plateau"?

Many beekeepers recognize the benefits of insulation for a beehive " Coasting the Plateau" as you say. Are there disadvantages to coasting the plateau?

What would be the advantage of keeping the bees "Climbing the mountain" in a thin walled hive ?

 

[Beefriendly]

I don't think the research has ever been done. We make assumptions that insulation is better for the bees and it may well be. But I'd like to see some real science and stats on winter bees survival +/- insulation.
I know quite a few successful beekeepers who don't bother with insulation and am beginning to question my own thoughts about it's benefits.
Although I think its benefits regarding spring build up and overwintering nucs is pretty solid.

 

[drex]

In the 2018 national honey show videos, Ben Harden, in his talk " bees in winter" is of the opinion that non insulated hives help bees with their water needs and in questions at the end says he would not keep bees in poly hives. My hives are mainly wood ( aesthetic reasons) with two inches of celotex in the roof. Not suffered any winter losses in the last few years, and build up in spring does not seem a lot different to the two poly hives I have.

 

[Beefriendly]

I forgot to mention location may have a huge influence. We have many micro-climates within our own small country.
Never got much above freezing here, yet 8C in tropical Devon....Try Southern Italy vs Finland.

 

[SDM]

:



We celebrate that back on the 4th of July

Besides, if we took a holiday to celebrate every time we screwed over an indigenous people, we'd never get anything done.

 

[Fusion_power]

I don't think the research has ever been done. We make assumptions that insulation is better for the bees and it may well be. But I'd like to see some real science and stats on winter bees survival +/- insulation.
I know quite a few successful beekeepers who don't bother with insulation and am beginning to question my own thoughts about it's benefits.

Only part of the scientific study needed has ever been done. Bernhard Mobus wrote a moderately well documented study on wintering bees in highly insulated hives which was published in the 1998 issue of American bee Journal. He found a significant negative effect for very large colonies. Wintering bees - unable to forage due to temperatures - rely on water produced while metabolizing honey. As honey is metabolized, the water that is in the honey plus the water released by the reaction of C6H12O6 sugar with 6 O2 oxygen produces 6 CO2 carbon dioxide plus 6 H20 water. He found that very large colonies of bees in highly insulated hives become so water starved that they fly out of the hive at low temperatures and perish by the thousands. The colonies he studied shrank drastically during winter. On the flip side, highly insulated hives for very small colonies enhance winter survival as they are more vulnerable to cold temperatures.

 

[user 6228]

Only part of the scientific study needed has ever been done. Bernhard Mobus wrote a moderately well documented study on wintering bees in highly insulated hives which was published in the 1998 issue of American bee Journal. He found a significant negative effect for very large colonies. Wintering bees - unable to forage due to temperatures - rely on water produced while metabolizing honey. As honey is metabolized, the water that is in the honey plus the water released by the reaction of C6H12O6 sugar with 6 O2 oxygen produces 6 CO2 carbon dioxide plus 6 H20 water. He found that very large colonies of bees in highly insulated hives become so water starved that they fly out of the hive at low temperatures and perish by the thousands. The colonies he studied shrank drastically during winter. On the flip side, highly insulated hives for very small colonies enhance winter survival as they are more vulnerable to cold temperatures.

in that study he placed the insulation on colonies for a few week then took it off for a few weeks then put it back on then off then on.... The colonies did not prosper surprise surprise