British Bred Queens or Imported Queens - peoples choice?

[Beefriendly]

" a Buckfast, how do you recognise what is, or isn't, one?

As I said quite easily, but I'll spell it out for you.
You have to be a registered Buckfast breeder and publish the lines and crosses you use to call them Buckfast. All the breeders and their crosses are available on line.
It's the ones that come via third parties where you cannot verify the breeder or source that you need to be cautious about.

 

[B+.]

As I said quite easily, but I'll spell it out for you.
You have to be a registered Buckfast breeder and publish the lines and crosses you use to call them Buckfast. All the breeders and their crosses are available on line.
It's the ones that come via third parties where you cannot verify the breeder or source that you need to be cautious about.

That's exactly my point. There are endless "Buckfast" queens for sale. The customer has no way (that I am aware of) to verify whether the queen he is being offered is a Buckfast, or not.
The only way is to refer to the online database and check if the breeder (not the queen) appears genuine.
You can't even take a guess, based on their appearance (morphology) because they can all look so different. At least with a carnica (or any other race) you can see what you are getting for your money.
I even give pedigrees for the maternal line for my open mated queens (full pedigrees when they are island mated/II) but I see advertisements here and elsewhere, where the customer is expected to believe what the seller says without any documentation at all.....clearly a case of, buyer beware!

 

[B+.]

You have to be a registered Buckfast breeder and publish the lines and crosses you use to call them Buckfast. All the breeders and their crosses are available on line.

I knew this was available but was hoping there'd be a way.

Does this mean that Hivemakers queens (or any of the others who supply Buckfast in the UK) aren't Buckfast even though he uses Br Adams old apiaries. I see no registered UK Buckfast breeders so, based on the available information, there are no UK Buckfast breeders anymore.

 

[Beefriendly]

That's exactly my point. There are endless "Buckfast" queens for sale. The customer has no way (that I am aware of) to verify whether the queen he is being offered is a Buckfast, or not.!

Yes he/she has. They either buy direct from a registered breeder or ask their "bulk" supplier where their queens are coming from. It's no big deal, you pick up a telephone and say. hello can you tell me etc etc. Not exactly rocket science. Plus few dealers will stay in business if offering rubbish "non Buckfast" queens. But yes you need to be careful, as in any livestock transaction.
As you are not a commercial queen supplier, knowing the lineage of your queens is of little concern. However, all the major Buckfast breeders tell you the lines used and crossed for that particular year.

You also need to apply the same caution of origin and breeding to purchasing Carniolan and Italian queens. I've had some right horrible stock from one of the bigger UK queen sellers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's exactly my point. There are endless "Buckfast" queens for sale.

Same as there are endless carnies out there peddled by any old self styled 'breeder'

No difference really

 

[foghornleghorn]

I knew this was available but was hoping there'd be a way.

Does this mean that Hivemakers queens (or any of the others who supply Buckfast in the UK) aren't Buckfast even though he uses Br Adams old apiaries. I see no registered UK Buckfast breeders so, based on the available information, there are no UK Buckfast breeders anymore.

Keld brandstrup isn't on the site either

 

[B+.]

Same as there are endless carnies out there peddled by any old self styled 'breeder'

No difference really

My point was that you can tell a carnica/ligustica/mellifera but you can't distinguish a Buckfast. Beefriendly said you have to rely on the website, but, it seems you can't.
I agree that we can't differentiate between someone doing a spot of "queen rearing" and genuine breeders here...but that's another problem. I'm registered on both BeeBreed and AGT so it bugs me that anyone can claim to be a breeder without doing any testing/controlled breeding. I'd be all for a proper registration scheme (so long as it was open to all races)

 

[domino]

I'd buy queens from people/companies I trusted either through direct experience or through a recommendation.

Imported or not wouldn't be a factor.

The wider issue is how little (in my limited experience of three BKAs) associations do to encourage people to raise their own queens. It's often presented as black magic.

 

[B+.]

Yes he/she has. They either buy direct from a registered breeder or ask their "bulk" supplier where their queens are coming from. It's no big deal, you pick up a telephone and say. hello can you tell me etc etc. Not exactly rocket science. Plus few dealers will stay in business if offering rubbish "non Buckfast" queens. But yes you need to be careful, as in any livestock transaction.
As you are not a commercial queen supplier, knowing the lineage of your queens is of little concern. However, all the major Buckfast breeders tell you the lines used and crossed for that particular year.

You also need to apply the same caution of origin and breeding to purchasing Carniolan and Italian queens. I've had some right horrible stock from one of the bigger UK queen sellers.

I agree with some of what you say. However, even "bulk" suppliers (multipliers or straight retailers) usually won't tell you the ancestry of their stock. You're just supposed to be grateful that they'll sell you a queen.
I don't sell large numbers of queens but I do sell a few queens (too busy testing/breeding to chase around after sales). The ancestry is very much of concern so I supply breeders cards (like these https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3950 ) which give the maternal lineage at least.

 

[Beefriendly]

My point was that you can tell a carnica/ligustica/mellifera but you can't distinguish a Buckfast.)

Really? Bit of A sweeping statement....it's not something many people would feel confident in doing.

 

[Poly Hive]

Side stepping for a moment.

Queen rearing (not breeding) is very easy. If an Assoc is presenting it as difficult it's not an organisation to be involved with.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

usually won't tell you the ancestry of their stock. Y

Most sell F1 open mated queens....bit of a tricky one that.
Can you give exact ancestry from any of your open mated stocks?
No...of course you can't.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

Anybody had experience of Beckys Bees queens ??

 

[For want of a better word]

Most sell F1 open mated queens....bit of a tricky one that.
Can you give exact ancestry from any of your open mated stocks?
No...of course you can't.

BUT B+ can from his selected II stock.

I wonder if this makes a mockery of all the so called Buckfast bees being sold.. even as " island open mated"... does it really matter?

However there is definitely a market for early queens in the UK... I wonder where the OP is located?????

 

[B+.]

Most sell F1 open mated queens....bit of a tricky one that.
Can you give exact ancestry from any of your open mated stocks?
No...of course you can't.

I can guarantee the maternal ancestry (which is what I said above).

 

[B+.]

BUT B+ can from his selected II stock.

The ancestry goes A LOT further back than that.They're a closed population so its all available in BeeBreed

 

[Hunajavelho]

Keld brandstrup isn't on the site either

He has some years documented on that page.
You will get pedigrees from him by asking.

 

[Hunajavelho]

That's exactly my point. There are endless "Buckfast" queens for sale. The customer has no way (that I am aware of) to verify whether the queen he is being offered is a Buckfast, or not.
The only way is to refer to the online database and check if the breeder (not the queen) appears genuine.
You can't even take a guess, based on their appearance (morphology) because they can all look so different. At least with a carnica (or any other race) you can see what you are getting for your money.
I even give pedigrees for the maternal line for my open mated queens (full pedigrees when they are island mated/II) but I see advertisements here and elsewhere, where the customer is expected to believe what the seller says without any documentation at all.....clearly a case of, buyer beware!

Buckfast drones are always dark brown and/or with a golden ring.
workers are uniform colored with 1 or 1 and half typical orange/leather colored ring.

No serious Buckfast breeder sells any F0 queen from a line that is not breeding stable sistergroups.

 

[For want of a better word]

Buckfast drones are always dark brown and/or with a golden ring.
workers are uniform colored with 1 or 1 and half typical orange/leather colored ring.

I have New Zealand Italians that look just like what you describe... could have mated with Carniolians.... who knows?

 

[Beefriendly]

BUT B+ can from his selected II stock.

Do keep up Hoppy, we were talking open mated stock, not II.
UR