British Bred Queens or Imported Queens - peoples choice?

[Finman]

Yeah... It seems that everyone can ban what ever after Brexit.

 

[madasafish]

It constantly amuses/annoys me that an organisation that is effectively purely English sports the British word.

So given its lying in its name what does that actually say about the ethos?

PH

Strangely enough I was talking to two Welsh members on Saturday.. but of course you are essentially correct that it consists largely of English members.

 

[Poly Hive]

There I was thinking our fellow Celts have more sense.

PH

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I don't buy queens in, but I have been told that there are Buckfasts and there are Buckfasts. Some are noticeably less good.The quality DOES depend on the breeder/supplier and a good reputation would spread and hopefully result in a 'good name' for the good breeders and a raspberry for the others. Maybe we need a "rate-my-bee" website; there's already a rate my poo site!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Strangely enough I was talking to two Welsh members on Saturday.. but of course you are essentially correct that it consists largely of English members.

There I was thinking our fellow Celts have more sense.

PH

Some of us just follow the teachings of Chief Sitting Bull:
"it is better to be inside the tepee p!ssing out than standing outside in the rain trying to p!ss in"
Or indeed be inside, curling one down in the shaddows

 

[For want of a better word]

It constantly amuses/annoys me that an organisation that is effectively purely English sports the British word.

So given its lying in its name what does that actually say about the ethos?

PH

Like BRITISH GAS...?

 

[birdsandbees]

It constantly amuses/annoys me that an organisation that is effectively purely English sports the British word.

So given its lying in its name what does that actually say about the ethos?

PH

That's interesting! I've never really noticed before, I just looked at the map of BBKA associations in their website, none in Scotland or Wales (though one on the edge of Gwent) and only one showing in N.I
so why is that? as above, is it that the majority of Celts aren't interested in setting up associations or are there other reasons?

 

[B+.]

Some of us just follow the teachings of Chief Sitting Bull:
"it is better to be inside the tepee p!ssing out than standing outside in the rain trying to p!ss in"

Like leaving the EU?

 

[Repwoc]

is it that the majority of Celts aren't interested in setting up associations or are there other reasons?

Nationalism - the Welsh BKAs belong to the WBKA and the Scots BKAs to the SBKA. AFAIK the BBKA is open to all regional BKAs (Gwent BKA in Wales is in BBKA for instance) but the majority of the Celtic BKAs stick to their own.

 

[birdsandbees]

Nationalism - the Welsh BKAs belong to the WBKA and the Scots BKAs to the SBKA. AFAIK the BBKA is open to all regional BKAs (Gwent BKA in Wales is in BBKA for instance) but the majority of the Celtic BKAs stick to their own.

Ahh, I see, thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's interesting! I've never really noticed before, I just looked at the map of BBKA associations in their website, none in Scotland or Wales (though one on the edge of Gwent) and only one showing in N.I
so why is that? as above, is it that the majority of Celts aren't interested in setting up associations or are there other reasons?

Many of the association in Wales were among the first when the BBKA was formed
The Welsh Beekeeper's association was formed as a separate entity in 1943,so then there was no need to be part of the BBKA we are affiliated to the BBKA.
Monmouthshire declined to join the WBKA (part of it still considered themselves in England until the local governments act in in 1972)

 

[Into the lions den]

and then the golden Form which I see in the USA is being referred to as I think Cardovan. .

Cordovan is actually just a recessive colour trait. In Cordovan bees the black pigmentation is largely absent and is replaced by a brown colour. It can occur in all be types from time to time...have seen numerous colonies over the years where half the drones were a nice chocolate brown, the rest jet black, so there were Cordovan genes in there.

In really yellow bees seeing a proportion that are brown at the abdomen tip rather than black is a sign of the presence of Cordovan genetics in the mix.

It was used as a breeding tool in some quarters (Susan Cobey was one) to verify the effectiveness of their selection.

Cordovan bees are for some reason generally a bit 'soft' and not very industrious. Some breeders said they were a great bee for an observation hive due to their interesting colour but were not great honey getters, which was very honest of them.

As for Buckfast......there are some very good queen vendors out there who take breeder queens from top breeders who supply with a good pedigree, often from Germany but also Luxembourg, Denmark, Finland (very interesting stock in our climate!), then graft them and open mate in areas they are flooding with drones from the lines of other breeders. the results are excellent for production colonies, but do they come with a certificate, pedigree and 'reassuringly high' price tag?...no...but I know which I would put in my working colonies...even though I have a general preference for carnica.

 

[B+.]

even though I have a general preference for carnica.

Me too.

 

[Ian123]

no murray dont let the cat out the bag.....the bbka will now be polling all those 2 hive keepers of 18 months to see if they want to ban the daughters of imported queens

 

[mbc]

Indeed.

They're really rather good

I second that.

Thanks guys, positive feedback is heartening stuff, especially in January (no winter blues here, honest!)
Interesting thread, I'm often asked for the provenance or ancestry of my bees but as I've never brought in any lines but also my bees are open mated I find it a bit meaningless. I have lines of queen mothers with records going back to the last century but I doubt it would make any sense to anyone else and in all honesty without ii or a deal more isolation at my mating sites it all becomes a bit of an amalgam anyway. I am looking forward to getting results back from samples sent for DNA testing last season but that will only give me a better idea of how pure a sample of amm they are and I'm not sure how useful that is either.
What I'm after is sustainability, a bee that can be improved by increments without the need for ii or especially isolated mating sites ie. open mated in their habitat with relatively predictable outcomes, I'd hate to get on a treadmill of imports and mess up the local drone population even if it meant short term gains.

 

[B+.]

Thanks guys, positive feedback is heartening stuff, especially in January (no winter blues here, honest!)
Interesting thread, I'm often asked for the provenance or ancestry of my bees but as I've never brought in any lines but also my bees are open mated I find it a bit meaningless. I have lines of queen mothers with records going back to the last century but I doubt it would make any sense to anyone else and in all honesty without ii or a deal more isolation at my mating sites it all becomes a bit of an amalgam anyway. I am looking forward to getting results back from samples sent for DNA testing last season but that will only give me a better idea of how pure a sample of amm they are and I'm not sure how useful that is either.
What I'm after is sustainability, a bee that can be improved by increments without the need for ii or especially isolated mating sites ie. open mated in their habitat with relatively predictable outcomes, I'd hate to get on a treadmill of imports and mess up the local drone population even if it meant short term gains.

The other side of the coin is that we don't want to end up in the same boat as America with allele depletion following the 1922 Honey Bee Act

 

[mbc]

The other side of the coin is that we don't want to end up in the same boat as America with allele depletion following the 1922 Honey Bee Act

As I understand it their allele depletion issues are all about breeders jumping on the same bandwagon, copycating each other and ii ing the same lines to get the breeders and then mass producing daughters. I haven't heard anyone suggest (until your post above if that's what you meant) that allele depletion can result from open mating in a diverse population.

 

[birdsandbees]

Thanks guys, positive feedback is heartening stuff, especially in January (no winter blues here, honest!)
Interesting thread, I'm often asked for the provenance or ancestry of my bees but as I've never brought in any lines but also my bees are open mated I find it a bit meaningless. I have lines of queen mothers with records going back to the last century but I doubt it would make any sense to anyone else and in all honesty without ii or a deal more isolation at my mating sites it all becomes a bit of an amalgam anyway. I am looking forward to getting results back from samples sent for DNA testing last season but that will only give me a better idea of how pure a sample of amm they are and I'm not sure how useful that is either.
What I'm after is sustainability, a bee that can be improved by increments without the need for ii or especially isolated mating sites ie. open mated in their habitat with relatively predictable outcomes, I'd hate to get on a treadmill of imports and mess up the local drone population even if it meant short term gains.

what a lovely outlook, I will send you a PM regarding acquiring a couple of your queens this year if that's okay, over the last couple of years I've found most swarms I've been called out to or caught in the vicinity have been very dark bees and my open mated queens have ended up producing dark workers, I realise that this effectively means nothing so I hope to keep more control with II using queens with high amm genetics and see how it goes but with currently only 20 hives across three sites i'm not a breeder just doing what I can to keep amm genes as high as possible and progressively improve or maintain the qualities I find desirable, you know those that most other actual breeders look for

 

[B+.]

As I understand it their allele depletion issues are all about breeders jumping on the same bandwagon, copycating each other and ii ing the same lines to get the breeders and then mass producing daughters. I haven't heard anyone suggest (until your post above if that's what you meant) that allele depletion can result from open mating in a diverse population.

They made it illegal to import stock (as some would prefer to happen here too). Consequently, over a period of time, they had less diversity as the queen producers produced more and more from less and less. It didn't matter that if it was open mated, the drones a queen could find became more closely related.

 

[For want of a better word]

Thanks guys, positive feedback is heartening stuff, especially in January (no winter blues here, honest!)
, I'd hate to get on a treadmill of imports and mess up the local drone population even if it meant short term gains.

In a nutshell that is the problem.... "imported" bees messing up the gene pool... possibly not always the 2 hive owners at fault buying from overseas/ out of the area, because that is what their "teachers" said they need to do to get the 400lb per colony honey crop!
Selection from your best only works if the breeder / queen rearer can totally dominate the drone gene pool... otherwise II is the only option.