Breeding for mite tolerance

[B+.]

I did not started that discussion. You bark again a wrong tree. Choose next time right target, which is easier.
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I am not "barking" at any tree. I have ignored your jibe because I would like to hear what other people have to say on the subject of "breeding for mite tolerance". I am sure that there are many people who are working in this area and have a valuable contribution to make.

 

[Finman]

I am not "barking" at any tree. .

IT is a Finnish proverb.

A dog is barking a tree, but the quarry bird is in another tree.
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From hunting society times, you know.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

IT is a Finnish proverb.

A dog is barking a tree, but the quarry bird is in another tree.
.
From hunting society times, you know.

I thought barking up the wrong tree was about fieldwork? When you label your oak bark-rubbing "ash" etc.?

 

[For want of a better word]

I thought barking up the wrong tree was about fieldwork? When you label your oak bark-rubbing "ash" etc.?

Some one has been rubbing Finnie up the wrong way!

Now back to mite tolerance... will Varroa go the same way as the Isle of Wight disease and suddenly disappear?

Mytten da

 

[Finman]

Some one has been rubbing Finnie up the wrong way!

da

Proverb actually tells that the dog was not very clever.

 

[B+.]

Now back to mite tolerance... will Varroa go the same way as the Isle of Wight disease and suddenly disappear?

That is unlikely to happen.
The fact that we are talking about "tolerance" implies to me that there is a level of infestation that we are prepared to accept. Indeed, everything I have read talks about treatments becoming necessary at the 1 mite / 10g of bees level.
It is a difficult path, but, I believe we have to apply as much selective pressure on the bees as the treatments do to the mites.

 

[Finman]

Now back to mite tolerance... will Varroa go the same way as the Isle of Wight disease and suddenly disappear?

Mytten da

It suddenly disappeared because UK Beeks imported from Belgium tracheal mite resistant bee stocks.

It will not take long, when drones of B+ resistant bees deliver their genes to whole Britain. Feral bees will be back soon.
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B+'s bees are from Germany, but never mind. So was Brother Adam too.

 

[B+.]

It suddenly disappeared because UK Beeks imported from Belgium tracheal mite resistant bee stocks.

It will not take long, when drones of B+ resistant bees deliver their genes to whole Britain. Feral bees will be back soon.
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B+'s bees are from Germany, but never mind. So was Brother Adam too.

Is it wrong to work WITH our European neighbours to find a solution to this problem?
I merely do what you constantly accuse us of not doing: looking beyond our own borders. I don't have a problem working with the Germans or Dutch ....or even the Finnish people, if it helps me to achieve my goal.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

That is unlikely to happen.
The fact that we are talking about "tolerance" implies to me that there is a level of infestation that we are prepared to accept. Indeed, everything I have read talks about treatments becoming necessary at the 1 mite / 10g of bees level.
It is a difficult path, but, I believe we have to apply as much selective pressure on the bees as the treatments do to the mites.

I take a different tack, and am encouraged by the recent "B" virus research. I think it will be far more productive to put selective pressure on the mites (and, now, it turns out, particularly the viruses they are incentivized to carry) because of their shorter generation. The problem with treatments is they put the wrong sort of pressure on the mites; towards robustness to treatment AND TOWARDS LETHALITY. By treating symptoms not mites we would reverse that. I dropped 8,000 mites out of a colony 18m ago; am going to explore the idea that the mites are relatively benign.

 

[Finman]

I take a different tack, and am encouraged by the recent "B" virus research. I think it will be far more productive to put selective pressure on the mites (and, now, it turns out, particularly the viruses they are incentivized to carry) because of their shorter generation. The problem with treatments is they put the wrong sort of pressure on the mites; towards robustness to treatment AND TOWARDS LETHALITY. By treating symptoms not mites we would reverse that. I dropped 8,000 mites out of a colony 18m ago; am going to explore the idea that the mites are relatively benign.

Well, that is something. You should wait one month more, and you would get 16,000 mites.

Selective pressure, that is something #2

 

[B+.]

I dropped 8,000 mites out of a colony 18m ago; am going to explore the idea that the mites are relatively benign.

Anyone who has looked at the contents of the hive floor under a microscope will know that there are a lot of microscopic creatures that do no real harm to the colony. As I understand it, it is not so much the varroa mites that do the damage, but the viruses they carry. How will you know what virus all of these mites carry?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Indeed, everything I have read talks about treatments becoming necessary at the 1 mite / 10g of bees level.

That is a lot higher number than I would be happy to let them get to.

 

[B+.]

That is a lot higher number than I would be happy to let them get to.

I suppose it depends on the time of year. The AGT talk about not taking untreated colonies into the winter vitality test if they have as many as 2 mites / 10g of bees (http://www.toleranzzucht.de/uploads/media/Vitalitätstest_Anleitung.pdf)

What level do you intervene at?

 

[Hivemaker.]

What level do you intervene at?

As you mention, time of year needs to be taken into account, but in spring, late March Early April I would not let them get much above 3 mites per 100g.

 

[Finman]

As you mention, time of year needs to be taken into account, but in spring, late March Early April I would not let them get much above 3 mites per 100g.

30 mites in kilo is much in late Marsh.

2 kg normal bees occupy one langstroth box. Let's say 50 mites.
IT is about 2000 mites at the end of August. And bees are 7 kg.

But if hive destroys mites during summer and spring, calculations are what ever.
.
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[charlievictorbravo]

Anyone who has looked at the contents of the hive floor under a microscope will know that there are a lot of microscopic creatures that do no real harm to the colony. As I understand it, it is not so much the varroa mites that do the damage, but the viruses they carry. How will you know what virus all of these mites carry?

You've hit the nail on the head. The detail of the various viruses that inhabit our hives has only recently been brought to the attention of UK beekeepers by the work of Prof Declan Schroeder and the Swindon Bees of Ron Hoskins.

I spoke to a commercial beekeeper last weekend who has 1600 hives and asked him about Varroa treatment. He said that all his colonies get the same treatment for Varroa because he does not have the time to differentiate between those that need it those that don't. He suspects that about 25% don't need it but for him Apistan treatment is cheaper than time involved in trying to separate the treaters and non-treaters. Problem is, even if only 10% of his bees are able to cope with their mites/viruses, using a universal treatment will kill the mites that may be infected with a more benign version of DWV and we don't know what effect that might have on the bees - will they lose their Varroa/virus tolerance, etc.

Clearly more research is needed but not only by a virologist - help from a bee behaviour researcher might turn up something useful.

CVB

 

[Fusion_power]

The AGT talk about not taking untreated colonies into the winter vitality test if they have as many as 2 mites / 10g of bees

While anything is an improvement, the number of mites in my bees is dramatically lower than these numbers. I counted mite drop from a colony and got 15 mites in 48 days. The colony has not been treated for mites since fall 2004. If they had a large mite population, there would be more than 15 mites in 48 days. This suggests to me that there are a lot of red herrings regarding mite tolerance mechanisms promulgated through the beekeeping world at present.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Anyone who has looked at the contents of the hive floor under a microscope will know that there are a lot of microscopic creatures that do no real harm to the colony. As I understand it, it is not so much the varroa mites that do the damage, but the viruses they carry. How will you know what virus all of these mites carry?

That's the point: I don't. But if they could tolerate 8,000 mites and still give a crop (and a small swarm, from an overwintered nuc) then it is POSSIBLE that the mites were carrying a relatively benign set of viruses. So I am going to investigate that possibility.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

That's the point: I don't. But if they could tolerate 8,000 mites and still give a crop (and a small swarm, from an overwintered nuc) then it is POSSIBLE that the mites were carrying a relatively benign set of viruses. So I am going to investigate that possibility.

If you don't mind me asking, how will you investigate? Do you have a friendly neighbourhood virologist who'll do the virus sequencing for you? Sounds a bit jokey but that is what is needed so that beekeepers who have not treated for years can find out if their bees have the Type B DWV, same as Ron Hoskins at Swindon. Their queens and nucs then would be worth a premium price!

CVB

 

[Finman]

That's the point: I don't. But if they could tolerate 8,000 mites and still give a crop (and a small swarm, from an overwintered nuc) then it is POSSIBLE that the mites were carrying a relatively benign set of viruses. So I am going to investigate that possibility.

No hive can tolerate such amount. Mites consentrate into last brood, and colony will be soon empty, when summer bees have died.

Hobby virus researcher. That is what we need.