BBKA education

[BBG]

Things like farmers' markets guard their image quite tightly, for example in the ones round here you can only sell the produce you make or raise yourself. You can't buy meat (or honey) somewhere else and then set up a stall.

Exactly the same with our local farmers market,and i think thats just how it should be for all the farmers markets in the country.

This is ridiculous and smacks of some petty official dreaming up ideas.

By the same thought process, every stall holder should have a qualification - degrees for farming, cheese-making, horticulture.

Complain and have these unfair qualififications removed unless they apply to all.

Next it will be degrees in horticulture for anybody who wants an allotment. No degree - no allotment. Piffle!

Is this BBKA empire building through infiltration and having the ear of those who can control these matters.
Very petty and unhelpful

 

[Black Comb]

No BBG it's not ridiculous.
These markets are set up for small producers to sell direct to the public.
Part of the appeal to the consumer is that they are buying direct off the producer. They are advertised as such.

Therefore to stop stallholders simply buying in and selling on their chosen goods there has to be some rules.

I don't mind "proving" I'm a producer - if the organisation says BBKA basic is needed to prove this so what - any reasonably competent beekeeper can pass the BBKA basic and it doesn't cost much. Similarly in the increasingly litigious age things like a basic health certificate are common sense.

I wouldn't want to go to a local "producer" market and buy chinese honey - I can do that at Tesco.

 

[Adam]

Blimey, you guys have some seriously extreme views.

Many farmers markets require you to have a hygiene certificate, although it's unlikely to significantly de-risk the sale of honey. However, it's one rule for everyone in most cases, and honey sales are just one stall of many food types. It assists them to transfer liability should (albeit a tiny risk) that something goes wrong.

So, some also ask for a basic. I think we can all see that's pretty pointless to make it a mandatory for sale requirement, but again, it's all about insurance risk. Unpalatable / dangerous nectar sources, an understanding of disease and the withdrawal period on honey etc. It would all go a long way to proving competence if you have any certificate (from any organisation/country equivalent). This is all about demonstrating competence in a legal sense.

Let me ask another question, imagine your honey poisoned somebody (however unlikely that may be) purchased from a farmers market. How would you prove competence to a lawyer? 30 years experience - not worth anything (in court that is). Peer review by an independent assessor will cover your backside. You don't want to take a basic. Don't. It's that simple. You don't have to bleat constantly about how unfair it all is. If you don't want to be in the BBKA - fine, but it's near comical how aggressive some of you are to an organisation you don't want to be a member of. The modern world is full of companies offering to sue on your behalf. All it needs is one malicious toe-rag to say they were "poisoned" and you'd be scrabbling around for a legal defence. Can I repeat again - it's not compulsory - it's a personal choice.

If someone came up with a credible alternative exam, no doubt the farmers markets could add that to the list of comparable required qualifications. Indeed, Ireland has a slightly different system altogether. If you're being really picky, they are suppressing across national boundary sales by refusing other countries beekeepers / qualifications anyway.

The BBKA has never pursued a compulsory scheme, indeed they often have committees when they join together with the Bee Farmers, Central Association, BIBBA, etc.

I think you lot must have a vested interest in stirring up these conspiracy theories - I just can't see how you all have the time to sit around and spend so much time worrying about something that's unlikely to happen. In all the length of time the BBKA has been in existence it hasn't happened. The bulk of the BBKA is made up of normal beekeepers and they are everyday, practical beekeepers and none of them would wish a compulsory scheme, indeed I think you'd find if anyone did it, it would be CSL via the NBU.

Adam

 

[tonybloke]

Blimey, you guys have some seriously extreme views.

Many farmers markets require you to have a hygiene certificate, although it's unlikely to significantly de-risk the sale of honey. However, it's one rule for everyone in most cases, and honey sales are just one stall of many food types. It assists them to transfer liability should (albeit a tiny risk) that something goes wrong.

So, some also ask for a basic. I think we can all see that's pretty pointless to make it a mandatory for sale requirement, but again, it's all about insurance risk. Unpalatable / dangerous nectar sources, an understanding of disease and the withdrawal period on honey etc. It would all go a long way to proving competence if you have any certificate (from any organisation/country equivalent). This is all about demonstrating competence in a legal sense.

Let me ask another question, imagine your honey poisoned somebody (however unlikely that may be) purchased from a farmers market. How would you prove competence to a lawyer? 30 years experience - not worth anything (in court that is). Peer review by an independent assessor will cover your backside. You don't want to take a basic. Don't. It's that simple. You don't have to bleat constantly about how unfair it all is. If you don't want to be in the BBKA - fine, but it's near comical how aggressive some of you are to an organisation you don't want to be a member of. The modern world is full of companies offering to sue on your behalf. All it needs is one malicious toe-rag to say they were "poisoned" and you'd be scrabbling around for a legal defence. Can I repeat again - it's not compulsory - it's a personal choice.

If someone came up with a credible alternative exam, no doubt the farmers markets could add that to the list of comparable required qualifications. Indeed, Ireland has a slightly different system altogether. If you're being really picky, they are suppressing across national boundary sales by refusing other countries beekeepers / qualifications anyway.

The BBKA has never pursued a compulsory scheme, indeed they often have committees when they join together with the Bee Farmers, Central Association, BIBBA, etc.

I think you lot must have a vested interest in stirring up these conspiracy theories - I just can't see how you all have the time to sit around and spend so much time worrying about something that's unlikely to happen. In all the length of time the BBKA has been in existence it hasn't happened. The bulk of the BBKA is made up of normal beekeepers and they are everyday, practical beekeepers and none of them would wish a compulsory scheme, indeed I think you'd find if anyone did it, it would be CSL via the NBU.

Adam

 

[Poly Hive]

Please don't tar everyone, "you lot" with the same brush thank you very much.

I for one find it offensive.

PH

 

[Black Comb]

 

[BKF Admin]

The BBKA has never pursued a compulsory scheme

Adam

Yes they have,it was during 1977.
The BBKA have selective memories over many past issues.

One of the reasons this forum was setup was to allow individuals to monitor the BBKA and report to others without being censored.
With your comments above I can see why its needed.

 

[madasafish]

It would all go a long way to proving competence if you have any certificate (from any organisation/country equivalent). This is all about demonstrating competence in a legal sense.


Anyone who thinks a certificate by itself means anything is a real dumb consumer. And anyone with any nous KNOWS that insurance companies can think of 1 million and one reasons why not to pay out..


And anyone with any wordly experience knows certificates can be faked and often are...

If your insurance cover does not provide consequential loss cover for food poisoning and medicalbills and loss of earnings, it is in reality not worth much.
Unless you want a warm glow (and there are cheaper ways of achieving that

 

[drstitson]

Farmer's markets

The whole point of these is that you

A - Buy DIRECT from producer

and

B - Buy LOCAL

They were set up to promote small scale/local/specialist/artisan producers.

We accept the concept of organic certification. Perhaps local producers should be certified for their produce - that's what happens in Italy where local chamber of commerce protect non DOP/IGT produce (for our area see: http://www.tradizionesaporimodena.it/).

 

[Nellie]

Yes they have,it was during 1977.
The BBKA have selective memories over many past issues.

One of the reasons this forum was setup was to allow individuals to monitor the BBKA and report to others without being censored.
With your comments above I can see why its needed.

Sorry, I agree with Adam, and to even mention censorship on this forum of all places with a straight face is laughable beyond belief.

You've no credibility whatsoever as a forum to "monitor" the BBKA when anything, absolutely anything, they do is spun by some of your members at every opportunity into some wierd machiavellian plan. Frankly you credit them with far more organisation, cunning and scheming abilities than me.

I know where I go to get honest, pragmatic critique of the BBKA when something doesn't seem right and it sure as hell isn't here. For a bit of footstamping, mouth frothing and "comedy" acronyms though you're certainly top dog.

 

[BKF Admin]

Well my dads bigger than your dad Nellie !!

Regards censorship,give me one example were we have censored a post ?

 

[oliver90owner]

Poisoning people? What utter rubbish. Trading standards insist on the mandatory lot number. I for one always retain a jar or two, from each batch, until long past the 'use by' date. One person is not going to get poisoned, lots are likely to. Trading standards would be around in double quick time to make checks to determine and isolate the risk.

Earlier I was referring to perhaps the farmer's daughter actually selling the stuff on a stall. She may be selling local produce but not directly involved with all the parts of that production. Certainly (and it would soon be picked up by Trading Standard testing if honey with non-local pollen were marketed. BIG fines for that and rightly so!

All sensible requirements can be in place without an actual certificate from any particular body for any particular person.

I am sure that if someone were duping the public, they would soon be found out and reported and taken to the cleaners by Trading Standards.

RAB

 

[Nellie]

Now I'd love to be proved wrong when I post this as tapatalk doesn't let you preview a post:

http://************************/files/bbka-research-concepts.pdf

I'd call that censorship myself. You could have disabled the URL so it's not clickable while leaving the contents visible.

Blocking the forum or membership information page is one thing, blocking all content from a national association regardless of what it contains (in this case a research document on Bee Health) is just petty.

 

[Nellie]

Well my dads bigger than your dad Nellie !!

Interesting that you're happy to dish out criticism, justified or not, but immediately resort to this kind of response when faced with fairly mild criticism yourself.

I don't expect you necessarily to agree with me, I just called some of your buddies childish after all. But again, you're the one claiming that you see your role to "monitor" the BBKA and report any shenanigans and this is the level of discourse that you resort to right off the bat.

We've done this before a few months back when someone asked about, funnily enough, education previously and I'm saying the same things again this time.

If you want to be taken seriously, start acting like an adult rather than a sulky teenager every time someone says something you don't like.

 

[BKF Admin]

Not allowing links to the BBKA website is not censorship !!
Why do you think we block links ?

 

[BKF Admin]

If you want to be taken seriously, start acting like an adult rather than a sulky teenager every time someone says something you don't like.

Thats the whole point though,nobody needs to take my comments or any other members seriously,we are all here to help each other and sometimes even break into a smile.

What I tend to think makes no odds,as admin of the forum I dont even get a gold chain around my neck with a blue ribbon.

If I get it wrong as I often do then we have more than enough members who pm me telling me to "£$%^&* !!!

The forum is very fluid,it changes with what members want,we have no constitution and regulations with committees overseeing everything,

It seems to work very well dont you think ?

Maybe the BBKA should try it sometime..

As I have said before:
You dont need to know the square root of a pickled onion to get the lid off the jar.

And yet some BBKA members think not only should you have a certificate in Pickled onions but also need to set up an education group to draw up onion standards and also set up a working party to draw up a white paper to present to goverment.

A good example is pollination,a word the BBKA used very little until the millions of pounds was being offered last year,suddenly the BBKA could not send out a press release without saying "Pollination" at least 3 times in the memo.

It looks to me from recent events that the BBKA is now happy to say anything as long as the money is made available.

 

[Nellie]

In the case of the BBKA? Petty Vendetta?

I mean if none of the following links work then you are at least consistent in wanting to ring fence your site as the only source of beekeeping material/advice that can be supplied to visitors here without them pottering around the web on their own:

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/ - SBA
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/textlinks.html -Dave cushman
http://www.************/ - biobees
http://www.bibba.com/ - BIBBA

Just as a couple of well known, UK based websites providing beekeeping information.

 

[Nellie]

Well that's not desperately surprising on the links front given that Biobees has a forum too so you're only filtering two of the biggest sources of beekeeping information in the UK from here, not bad.

Thats the whole point though,nobody needs to take my comments or any other members seriously,we are all here to help each other and sometimes even break into a smile.

You're the one who said one of the roles of this place was to monitor the BBKA, not me.

The forum is very fluid,it changes with what members want,we have no constitution and regulations with committees overseeing everything,

It seems to work very well dont you think ?

Depends on your point of view, I can think of a couple of people who'd disagree with you.

Maybe the BBKA should try it sometime..

Take it up with them, I've no sway over the BBKA.

As I have said before:
You dont need to know the square root of a pickled onion to get the lid off the jar.

And yet some BBKA members think not only should you have a certificate in Pickled onions but also need to set up an education group to draw up onion standards and also set up a working party to draw up a white paper to present to goverment.

When I go for a contract I'm asked if I'm certified in the areas I work in. If I hire a plumber I prefer that he's certified to work on my boiler so no, I don't think it's unreasonable that Allotment committees and councils ask that would be beekeepers are able to produce some evidence that they know what they're doing.

I think the market association is a little overzealous, but as pointed out several times the Basic Assessment covers labelling requirements and general honey "handling" so I guess from their point of view it makes sense.

 

[BKF Admin]

Its not a vendeta,it SEO.
Seach engine optimisation,the majority of forums on the internet do not allow links to other forums that are of the same topic.

The BBKA website has far far more page rank than we do,its my job as admin to try my hardest to reverse it.

The number one way of doing so is to block page links to related forums.
Using "no follow" tags used to be a way of doing it while still allowing the link but it no longer works so the links have to be removed.

If the majority of members want BBKA links to be shown then thats fine by me as the members have the final say.

Personaly I think it would be a shame if we did as the number of new members joining the forum would drop away as we would bleed page rank.

It seems to me that some members are just a little pissed because they sit on the BBKA forum all evening waiting to answer questions while more and more members are joining us.

Maybe like me they dont like the way things are being run ?

There are loads of posts saying go onto the bbka forum or biobees to read about xyz,only last week I told a new member to,it does not mean we should give direct web links advertising for them though.

This forum started with a membership of one(me) and is still under two years old,I dont have an advertising budget like the BBKA do,I cant put out press releases that get published in all the national papers or read out on tv,after all we are not the self proclaimed "Voice of british beekeepers" are we.

 

[rae]

f your insurance cover does not provide consequential loss cover for food poisoning and medicalbills and loss of earnings, it is in reality not worth much.

Where does one buy this sort of insurance? It would be unfortunate if a hobby ended up costing a LOT of money....would make selling a few jars of honey rather pointless.