BBKA Bee Breeding certificate.

[B+.]

.
I feel that you have a Society, which uses its resourcers that way. They have too few to do.

We have Queen rearing courses. I am sure that professional new breeders do not need that kind of certificate and neither need 2 hive owners.

Queen breeding is very tiny part of beekeeping.



Next certificates would be hyper insulating hives or mix sugar syrup.
.

They just haven't got their head around the fact that bee breeding is about improving bees for the future. It's not about open mating mongrels because, at best, you will only ever get a similar level of performance that you have already.
I am very disappointed in the BBKA. They have missed an opportunity to define a vision for the future instead of burying their head in the past.

 

[madasafish]

They just haven't got their head around the fact that bee breeding is about improving bees for the future. It's not about open mating mongrels because, at best, you will only ever get a similar level of performance that you have already.
I am very disappointed in the BBKA. They have missed an opportunity to define a vision for the future instead of burying their head in the past.

That is the problem: they don't have any vision.

Or rather they oppose bee imports (and do nothing practical about it because it is not possible) and replace it with ... nothing...We hear this mantra about "local bees" but outside a few isolated areas it is 100% bull excrement and is meaningless.

The only way forward - if you oppose importing bees - is to build up local pools of docile productive bees that are easy to handle and productive and flood local areas with them and their drones. And encourage their use by providing local BBKA members with free queens to start with...and subsidised queens to replace losses with.

The BBKA has neither the will, the vision or the resources to do that..

Bibba have a different vision of local black bees. It has been an abject failure -over decades- due to lack of resources to carry out a mass program persuading beekeepers to adopt black bees as their go to queen type.(When I started beekeeping 7 years ago, I asked them about buying queens.. They had none available..Not much has changed since)


Since there are no plans to change any of the above, I assume queen imports of bees with characteristics that are desired- docility, yield etc... will continue.

LASI tried with hygenic bees - abject failure. Ron Hopkins claims he has hygenic bees- where is the program to introduce them? There appears to be none.

No vision , no plans.. an utter shambles...

Edit: The BBKA has around 24,000 members. It should be setting a goal of say 75% using a "standard English/Welsh Bee with regional variations" (I exclude Scotland and NI as they have separate associations..). So say 16,000 x an average of (say) 5 queens needed = 80k queens. Say a rolling program by area over 5 years - so 16k queens a year plus 25% additions for losses/natural replacements. So a breeding program to produce 20k queens a year..
The largest UK based queen breeder (Ged Marshall?) produces 2,000 (?) queens a year.. So it's going to have to be at least 10 and probably 20 queen breeders .. and huge investments in kit - and some good luck with the weather.

There is no thought to any of the above so "local queens" is just a pile of smoking ordure.

And I have not addressed commercial beekeepers at all...

 

[Teemore]

A bit of a farce by all accounts ... I think everyone who has been on this forum for a time know the efforts and care you take with your bee breeding ...

But ... the underlying message is that the BBKA, once again, has demonstrated that it is an organisation that, much of the time, is no longer fit for purpose.

They stumble from one disaster to another ... the trouble is, all the good people are too busy keeping bees ! And the few that are prepared to get involved are massacred by the old guard who seem incapable of bringing anything in beekeeping terms into this century ... indeed, in some cases, into the last century ...

Strange. A similar demonstration has been ongoing on this side of the Irish Sea as well. The cracks/problems might now be sticky taped back together, one result of which is that we are now asked to pay FIBKA Capitation of 48Euro per annum (on top of local association dues)....

 

[B+.]

Strange. A similar demonstration has been ongoing on this side of the Irish Sea as well. The cracks/problems might now be sticky taped back together, one result of which is that we are now asked to pay FIBKA Capitation of 48Euro per annum (on top of local association dues)....

I'm a member of Beds and North Bucks BKA. I am seriously considering cancelling my North Bucks membership as there is a BBKA component to the membership fee and I feel that it would be incongruent to continue supporting the BBKA when they don't seem capable of managing anything properly.
I am a member of BeeBreed-NL, for which I haven't been asked to pay a penny (the Dutch Beekeeping association NBV paid for several year up front) and the German varroa tolerance group AGT for which I pay 20 euros a year. The benefit I receive from these two groups in terms of information and access to breeding material is out of all proportion (better) than what I get out of my BBKA membership.
It' time the BBKA got it's act together.

 

[B+.]

That is the problem: they don't have any vision.

Or rather they oppose bee imports (and do nothing practical about it because it is not possible) and replace it with ... nothing...We hear this mantra about "local bees" but outside a few isolated areas it is 100% bull excrement and is meaningless.

The only way forward - if you oppose importing bees - is to build up local pools of docile productive bees that are easy to handle and productive and flood local areas with them and their drones. And encourage their use by providing local BBKA members with free queens to start with...and subsidised queens to replace losses with.

The BBKA has neither the will, the vision or the resources to do that..

Bibba have a different vision of local black bees. It has been an abject failure -over decades- due to lack of resources to carry out a mass program persuading beekeepers to adopt black bees as their go to queen type.(When I started beekeeping 7 years ago, I asked them about buying queens.. They had none available..Not much has changed since)


Since there are no plans to change any of the above, I assume queen imports of bees with characteristics that are desired- docility, yield etc... will continue.

LASI tried with hygenic bees - abject failure. Ron Hopkins claims he has hygenic bees- where is the program to introduce them? There appears to be none.

No vision , no plans.. an utter shambles...

Edit: The BBKA has around 24,000 members. It should be setting a goal of say 75% using a "standard English/Welsh Bee with regional variations" (I exclude Scotland and NI as they have separate associations..). So say 16,000 x an average of (say) 5 queens needed = 80k queens. Say a rolling program by area over 5 years - so 16k queens a year plus 25% additions for losses/natural replacements. So a breeding program to produce 20k queens a year..
The largest UK based queen breeder (Ged Marshall?) produces 2,000 (?) queens a year.. So it's going to have to be at least 10 and probably 20 queen breeders .. and huge investments in kit - and some good luck with the weather.

There is no thought to any of the above so "local queens" is just a pile of smoking ordure.

And I have not addressed commercial beekeepers at all...

Let's face it, we can dance around this all day but the plain and simple truth is that nobody is going to dedicate the time and effort (not to mention cost) to instrumentally inseminate local mongrels. It's a pipe-dream.
The basic principle is that you are working within a homogeneous group. With local mongrels, you aren't. Therefore, the population genetics upon which all of the breeding work that has been undertaken doesn't apply. You have to work within a stable population.
It's only within that population that you can apply the statistical models. I get sick and tired of people using the theory incorrectly. It doesn't apply to mongrels because they're not a stable gene pool. The population must be defined/controlled so you know what you are dealing with.
Like you, I was a member of BIBBA for a while and, like you, I heard all the BS about native black bees but could never get my hands on any. They were always the domain of an ivory tower group who claimed to have them but never let anyone else test them. You can draw your own conclusions from that.
I don't see how the BBKA could insist that people used a specific race. They don't have the authority and the bees just aren't available. Even if they were, that would be a backward step. Why would I want to give up everything I've accomplished to work with mongrels? I just wouldn't do it.

 

[colinc]

I have just received feedback on my assessment and I am hopping mad!





All the way through this process, the BBKA have given no indication that they actually understand what bee breeding is about. The "draft" specification for the certificate (which is all they have produced so far) makes it clear that it is a pass / fail (no grades) allowed certificate i.e. you either make the grade or you don't. Imagine how I felt when I received their feedback this morning to say that I made the grade but they have changed the rules. They now appear to be saying that you have to use mongrel stock but produce a pedigree consisting of at least 3 generations. What rubbish! You can't introduce new criteria after the assessment!

Oh my God! If that isn't the biggest F. You and pile of carp ever, I don't know what is.

I read all this thread when you started this year and to u turn like that is abominable.

When people who get involved to help develop a system like this are then disqualified for keeping the wrong breed, it undermines the whole system. As a new keeper why would I let assessors such as these assess me for any certificates? I will do as I please keep the bees I want to keep for the reasons I choose. BBKA can't dictate that.

All that letter says is you do everything as well or better than expected but we will dodge the bullet of accepting that you have higher crops and better behaviour than we want.....etc.


Like you say the most despicable case of sour grape politics ever. If you select for the traits you want, for the reasons you have posted after keeping mongrels for years and years, then that means the certificate should allow you to select your base stock.

It's taken less than 3 years for me to reconsider my BBKA membership by the way.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[B+.]

When people who get involved to help develop a system like this are then disqualified for keeping the wrong breed, it undermines the whole system. As a new keeper why would I let assessors such as these assess me for any certificates? I will do as I please keep the bees I want to keep for the reasons I choose. BBKA can't dictate that.

All that letter says is you do everything as well or better than expected but we will dodge the bullet of accepting that you have higher crops and better behaviour than we want.....etc.

Like you say the most despicable case of sour grape politics ever. If you select for the traits you want, for the reasons you have posted after keeping mongrels for years and years, then that means the certificate should allow you to select your base stock.

It's taken less than 3 years for me to reconsider my BBKA membership by the way.

I have to say that I went into this full of anticipation. I looked forward to the opportunity to contribute to the development of a proper bee breeding certificate and test my own knowledge at the same time. It's left a bad taste in my mouth though.
I don't believe the BBKA (or anyone else) has the right to dictate what bees you keep, although I do have my own preference. Surely, a beekeeper should be able to decide what is best in his area without being intimidated by others? The performance and characteristics of the bees should speak for themselves.
I'd actually rather not get involved in politics. It serves no useful purpose in the end. I stick to my original assertion that the purpose of the certificate should be to assess the evidence of stock assessment, selection of breeding material and controlled mating. Anything else is outside the scope of the certificate.

 

[For want of a better word]

]That is the problem: they don't have any vision***[/I].

***Seems that many hobby beekeepers do not, and hobby beekeepers make up the majority of the BBKA membership.

UK bred native dark bees are available from some BIBBA members, they are a bit fussy it seems to whom they sell them.

With B+ on all of this.... back to the... err.. back room??

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder what BKA would say if your process is to rear the village full of best drones?..
That is real local adapted bees breeding.

 

[Finman]

UK bred native dark bees are available

Yeghes da

I bet that they come from blue sky without asking. Local Virgin Spitfire.

 

[B+.]

.
I wonder what BKA would say if your process is to rear the village full of best drones?..

I wouldn't be satisfied with that. They're good enough for drone mothers / production colonies, but, I wouldn't accept drone flooding for my breeding stock. I also wouldn't breed daughters from open mated queens as you can't be 100% sure which drone her mother mated with (except on remote islands)

 

[Beefriendly]

Not too sure what all the fuss is about apart from another bit of BBKA bashing.
If I've read it right B+ was involved at an experimental stage of setting up the new "breeding module" and having visited and seen his Caneriolans+ they have adapted the module to fit more in line with their breed British, "no imports" policy.
Whilst this is IMHO is a quite narrow minded viewpoint, at least they are showing some consistency....but naivety and ignorance if they expect local mongrel breeding to be the cornerstone of a breeding module. As B+ has already pointed out mongrels do not breed true. At best it's toss a coin and see what you get, hardly breeding for improvement.
In a similar vein, a thread on another forum showed one of the leading BIBA lights tell people that Buckfast bees are simply a cross between Ligurian and Carniolan bees. God help us all!

 

[For want of a better word]

Buckfast bees are simply a cross between Ligurian and Carniolan bees. God help us all!

Please enlighten us... what are they?

Certainly can be very very cross from my own bitter experiences!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Not too sure what all the fuss is about apart from another bit of BBKA bashing.
If I've read it right B+ was involved at an experimental stage of setting up the new "breeding module" and having visited and seen his Caneriolans+ they have adapted the module to fit more in line with their breed British, "no imports" policy.

I think you've missed the point. If you take an assessment based on a particular brief, you expect to be judged according to that brief. You don't expect to be told that they'd modified the brief after the event and applied it retrospectively to assessments that have already taken place. That just isn't fair.
As I've already said: I wouldn't have wasted my time on it if I'd known they were only talking about local mongrels.
I don't have a problem with them changing the brief, but, that should only be applied to future candidates, not retrospectively.
One good thing to emerge from the process is the clarity that now exists over what they have in mind. If anyone should attempt it, you should be under no illusions that you will be assessed on modern bee breeding.
In the practical part, I was asked to graft a bar (min 10) larvae, set up a mating hive (apidea), mark and clip a couple of drones (drones were substituted for queens since mine are marked as soon as they emerge), and perform a pin-killed brood test (actually only the first part because he couldn't wait 8-12 hrs to observe the evaluation - I just had to explain how that was done (the assessor didn't seem to understand this as I had to correct him several times)). We opened two hives in the pouring rain (July) - one was queenless that I had prepared so that I could make nucs so it wasn't very well behaved. The other was 55-2-70-2016 which behaved impeccably. I wasn't keen to have them open too long because wasps become quite a nuisance mid-July in my area. Oh, I also demonstrated partial / full eversion of the drones since I had already clipped their wings and they wouldn't be of any further use.
The theoretical assessment was quite wide in scope and covered areas that I didn't think were even on the syllabus (nutrition, etc). It didn't really allow me to explain what I actually did though. The assessors (Marin Anastasov NDB & John Hendry) had a tick list of things they were looking for and stuck to it quite rigidly. After 90 minutes questioning, I felt exhausted as the questions just kept coming at me like a barrage. In all honesty, I don't think they understood anything more of the breeding activities I do than when they arrived. We just didn't go into it.

 

[Beefriendly]

I'll do better than that me old mate.
Here's a link to all the crosses and pedigrees provided by registered Buckfast breeders. Just chose your year, country and breeder and see what lines they crossed and where and when anmd notes on performances at the bottom.
Impressive, I'm sure you'll agree.

 

[Beefriendly]

I think you've missed the point.

No I said right at the very start, before you took the "test" it was aimed at local mongrel breeding, not for those breeding from imports.
https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-39682.html

 

[For want of a better word]

I'll do better than that me old mate.
Here's a link to all the crosses and pedigrees provided by registered Buckfast breeders. Just chose your year, country and breeder and see what lines they crossed and where and when anmd notes on performances at the bottom.
Impressive, I'm sure you'll agree.

Yep load of hogwash... on a par with "creative accountancy"!!

Deliberately missing the point for the sake of an argument!



Perhaps it will be a winter of discontent after all.... Autumn starts tomorrow! and its Roast Pork with apple sauce for dinner tonight !!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

No I said right at the very start, before you took the "test" it was aimed at local mongrel breeding, not for those breeding from imports.

It seems you were right.

 

[Finman]

.
About 5 years ago I tried to breed and select mongrels. Some hybrid colonies were very good, the whole system exploded in my hands. No limit in swarming.

3 summers ago I bought buckfasts and Italians , and they have been much more better than my hybrids

Secret is that the queen breeder has 1500 hives, and he knows what to do with bees. It is something else than 20 hive mongrel owner.

.

 

[Beefriendly]

Please enlighten us... what are they?

Yep load of hogwash... on a par with "creative accountancy"!!

I can only provide you with the answers, you don't have to read them or understand them. But If you think they are hogwash take it up with the Buckfast breeders who provide the lineages of their crosses.
Personally I think there is touch of envy here....seeing as how your Amm's breeding records are recorded on the back of old woodbine *** packets
Now get back under your Tamar bridge, dark is rapidly approaching.