This years plan - and what to do with 9-frame supers I may not need.

[bobba]

I have a bit of a strange plan regarding Super management this year.

I run national, brood+1/2 (AKA The devils work). I know it has its draw backs, but so far has worked out alright for me. So I will roll with it again this year.

Anyway, my plan:

The 1st super I put on the hives will have no QE.

All other supers will be above a QE.

The reason I plan to do this is that it will give the bees some extra brood room, then I can take the super off in the autumn when the bees move down and I can swag the honey.

Also I want all supers above the QE to have some cut comb.

My dilemma is as follows, I own 5 drawn supers in storage, 3 x10 frame and 2 x 9 frame.

The first super I put on will have to be a 10 frame, as the bees will need it for brood. The super I plan to put above the QE for Cut come production will be 10 frame, with 5 drawn frames and 5 new cc frames.

So basically I have 2 drawn 9 frame supers that I might not need again. Would It be possible to trim the drawn frames back down and change them back to 10 frame. Or could I sell them? I always hear talk of drawn comb being a "valuable resource", but have never seen drawn frames for sale so have no clue what they may be worth.

If anyone is wondering why I am using this unusual plan, I did it on one of my hives last year by mistake. The bees would not go into the 1st un-drawn super trough a QE. So I removed the QE and they were all over it. Then once I had some drawn super comb, I could put 1 drawn comb in the next new super above the QE and had no more problems.

I later watched a vid by Canadian Beekeeper and discovered he does a simlar thing with his hives, allowing the bees to move up into honey space, then moving his QE down later. So this has given me the reassurance that there may be some merit to this method.

I produced just shy of 70KG of honey from the hive I used this method on last year, most likely beginners luck I know, but I am keen to try and replicate last years success.

One final component of this plan is to make sure the 1st super that goes on below the QE has some un-drawn comb in it, this is so the bees will build some new comb for the queen to lay in, and makes the bees think they have building space in the hive. I "blieve" this helps to reduce swarming instinct.

I know it seems a bit of a maverick system, I sort of stumbled on it tbh. But 152lb from one hive! I don't think anyone can blame me for trying to give it another shot.

I still suspect I am never going to get close to my 152lb record again as long as I keep bees, but I got to try right.

PS the sister hive under different management style made about 8lb of honey and swarmed twice, but the 1st swarm made 55lb, so not all bad. The 2nd swarm overwintered in a single brood and are building fast, 1/2 brood going on this weekend (Sorry 1/2 brood haters, but at least I don't use matchsticks)

All comments and criticism welcome, thanks.

 

[Boston Bees]

Sorry, I am confused. Why can't you use your drawn 9 frame supers again?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Firstly I would have eleven frames in your 'half' part of your broodand a half (If you have hoffmans in the deep, I suggest you do the same for the shallow. I think you're being sensible using ten spaced frames in the supers, I find nine frame spacings give you comb a bit too thick, especially for cut comb, no problems trimming. there's no problem whatsoever trimming the comb down on the '9 spaced' frames, in fact, as you are going to checkerboard them I would just get a sharp serrated breadknife (or uncapping knife) and trim those frames back until they are roughly flush with the top bar, I actually did just that with some drawn frames years ago. do it know whilst the wax is still a bit brittle but not too much so.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sorry, I am confused. Why can't you use your drawn 9 frame supers again?

the OP wants to have ten frames to a box so they will need trimming a wee bit.

 

[bobba]

jenkinsbrynmair - I may have had you in mind when I made the 1/2 brood haters and matchsticks comment

I have 10+dummy in the broods (shallow and deep), all hoffmans. I have mainlys in all the supers.

If I wanted pure honey and no cut comb, than I found the 9s have some advantages. One less frame per box to assemble and uncap. And they hold a good bit more honey, 12-18% per super for me. The disadvantages are, supers are even heaver, the additional faf of getting 10 frames drawn then converting to 9. Then I found 9 frames yet more faff to extract in a 2/4 extractor. And you end up with another frame type to manage.

I think 10s are the way to go for my cc, they were just the right thickness to put chunks in my jars. I am thinking of going 4cc and 6wired per super. I want enough honey to make chunk and 6 frames will be easier on my 2/4 extractor.

Its good to know trimming frames down from 9s to 10s will be ok. I will have to get them out and have a look, but I am not sure they will be that different after my noob uncapping fork efforts anyway!

I do have another concern, last year all the 1st supers that went on below the QEs were new foundation, so I figure the bees could build them to "brood height", if there is such a thing. I was planning on putting about 5 new and 5 old in each this year. Will the used mainly frames be too thick for the bees to lay brood in? Can comb be to thick for brood? If bees want to lay brood in comb that's too thick, will they nibble it down?

Thanks.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Yes they will reduce the depth of the comb for brood-rearing. Manleys are 44 mm so a bit too deep for brood - so you would have a fat arc of stores above. The answer could be to go to double brood and then you have a clean split between boxes for brood or boxes for honey. Or just mark up you shallow boxes you intend to use for brood as seperate items. If you need to steal a super frame as a brood one, just cut it down at the time if it's one from storage.

 

[bobba]

Yes they will reduce the depth of the comb for brood-rearing. Manleys are 44 mm so a bit too deep for brood - so you would have a fat arc of stores above. The answer could be to go to double brood and then you have a clean split between boxes for brood or boxes for honey. Or just mark up you shallow boxes you intend to use for brood as seperate items. If you need to steal a super frame as a brood one, just cut it down at the time if it's one from storage.

Thanks.

I did notice that the frames that had brood reared in them were a bit bumpy and had patches of different color honey.

I would probably not be running this setup if I could start again, but its what I have. If I have another good honey year then maybe I can look at getting some more kit to switch things up. But for now I will work with what I have. Plus I am trying to repeat what I did last year, although the weather is not so good and bees have been less busy. So I have a hunch that I am not going to repeat last years numbers anyway.

I do have 1/2 broods that are strictly broods. Its just the 1st super that is my hybrid brood/super.

I must dig out the canadian beekeeper vid for a re-watch, I don't recall him worrying about comb height. So I am probably just overthinking things as usual, and the bees will nibble it down as necessary.

It has just occurred to me that I could just stick on another 1/2 brood, and use that as the brood/super. Then job done. Then I can swap the frames with other brood frames, and don't end up with brood stained super frames.

Now hear is the crazy idea, I could run 2 x 1/2s instead of a deep, so I would have 4* 1/2 for the summer and 3x1/2 for the winter. Then only have 2 kinds of frame and 1 size box - but that's something to think about next year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

why not just go double brood and be done with?

 

[Curly green finger's]

I have a bit of a strange plan regarding Super management this year.

I run national, brood+1/2 (AKA The devils work). I know it has its draw backs, but so far has worked out alright for me. So I will roll with it again this year.

Anyway, my plan:

The 1st super I put on the hives will have no QE.

All other supers will be above a QE.

The reason I plan to do this is that it will give the bees some extra brood room, then I can take the super off in the autumn when the bees move down and I can swag the honey.

Also I want all supers above the QE to have some cut comb.

My dilemma is as follows, I own 5 drawn supers in storage, 3 x10 frame and 2 x 9 frame.

The first super I put on will have to be a 10 frame, as the bees will need it for brood. The super I plan to put above the QE for Cut come production will be 10 frame, with 5 drawn frames and 5 new cc frames.

So basically I have 2 drawn 9 frame supers that I might not need again. Would It be possible to trim the drawn frames back down and change them back to 10 frame. Or could I sell them? I always hear talk of drawn comb being a "valuable resource", but have never seen drawn frames for sale so have no clue what they may be worth.

If anyone is wondering why I am using this unusual plan, I did it on one of my hives last year by mistake. The bees would not go into the 1st un-drawn super trough a QE. So I removed the QE and they were all over it. Then once I had some drawn super comb, I could put 1 drawn comb in the next new super above the QE and had no more problems.

I later watched a vid by Canadian Beekeeper and discovered he does a simlar thing with his hives, allowing the bees to move up into honey space, then moving his QE down later. So this has given me the reassurance that there may be some merit to this method.

I produced just shy of 70KG of honey from the hive I used this method on last year, most likely beginners luck I know, but I am keen to try and replicate last years success.

One final component of this plan is to make sure the 1st super that goes on below the QE has some un-drawn comb in it, this is so the bees will build some new comb for the queen to lay in, and makes the bees think they have building space in the hive. I "blieve" this helps to reduce swarming instinct.

I know it seems a bit of a maverick system, I sort of stumbled on it tbh. But 152lb from one hive! I don't think anyone can blame me for trying to give it another shot.

I still suspect I am never going to get close to my 152lb record again as long as I keep bees, but I got to try right.

PS the sister hive under different management style made about 8lb of honey and swarmed twice, but the 1st swarm made 55lb, so not all bad. The 2nd swarm overwintered in a single brood and are building fast, 1/2 brood going on this weekend (Sorry 1/2 brood haters, but at least I don't use matchsticks)

All comments and criticism welcome, thanks.

Did you requeen the swarms? I'm using a simular system with three boxes and then qx and supers.
Do you move arched frames above the qx with your brood/half setup.?

 

[Boston Bees]

...........

 

[Boston Bees]

Did you requeen the swarms?

Why would bobba want to do this?

 

[bobba]

Did you requeen the swarms? I'm using a simular system with three boxes and then qx and supers.
Do you move arched frames above the qx with your brood/half setup.?

I am glad to hear I am not the only brood + 2 x 1/2 maverick. I am seriously considering going triple 1/2 in the future! But am worried JBM may ban me from the forum if I do

No, I have not requeened any swarms. I tried my 1st year as I thought one was queenless, but they killed the queen I tried to introduce and went on to do ok.

I have found that if I have a new super and all new frames my bees are hesitant to cross a QE. But if I have a used box, or put at least one used frame in, then they cross happily. It does not have to be a frame with brood, any used frame seemed to work. So I only move frames up to get them through the QE.

But I had removed the QE from one of my hives before discovering this. So ended up using frames from a super from that hive to to coax them through on the 3rd hive. This meant I did not have to put a brood box frame in a super to coax them through.

This year I have a stash of used frames and boxes, so don't have to worry about moving frames up to coax them through the QE.

I wonder if you could rub some wax on the inside of a new box to coax them through too.

I will move some frame up/cycle them out of use, from the super/brood. But that is to give them space to reduce their swarming instinct - that's my theory anyway. I do not know if it really helps lol.

I also over winter with the 1/2 brood on the bottom, and switch it to the top in the spring when the 2nd 1/2 super/brood gos on. I honestly cannot remember why I started doing that, but am sure I had a reason.

And one hives brood/super was not woth extracting, so that went on the bottom for the winter too.

As I said earlier, I am thinking of basically going brood + 2 x 1/2. Then coaxing them down in the autumn to rob the honey from the top 1/2.

 

[hemo]

It doesn't hurt to experiment if you are happy with what you are doing and can understand why you are doing it, rather then following conventional practice. A lot of beeks will have tried this or that and settled on what works for them, others will work with the bees and try and understand what may benefit them whilst a lot just do this or that because the books say so or that is the teaching from the LBKA.

Those that experiment I believe learn a lot more then those that don't.
The hard part I see from my LBKA is those that are set to rigid methods and disagree with alternatives. Insulation just being a starters amongst the die hard set in there way beeks.

 

[pargyle]

It doesn't hurt to experiment if you are happy with what you are doing and can understand why you are doing it, rather then following conventional practice. A lot of beeks will have tried this or that and settled on what works for them, others will work with the bees and try and understand what may benefit them whilst a lot just do this or that because the books say so or that is the teaching from the LBKA.

Those that experiment I believe learn a lot more then those that don't.

And some try to reinvent what many beekeepers have tried before only to find that the 'new experiment' didn't work any better for them than it did for the previous exponents (who, by now have moved on to the more proven' method).

You all know me ... I'm always game to try something new or seek to improve on something that does not quite work ... but there's not very much in beekeeping that has not been tried before and I like to think that I don't repeat the mistakes or failed experiments of my predecessors.

If you are using standard nationals it's pretty much proven that a single national box will be insufficient to contain most moden bee strains in the season ... I can see that brood and a half (whilst I personally dislike this format) meets some of the need .. I can see that double brood will usually meet all of the need and permits the same size brood frames in both brood boxes. I personally think that the bees prefer to have their brood all in one box - they certainly don't split the combs horizontally in the wild out of choice.

HOWEVER ... I totally fail to see any real benefit of Brood plus two supers as a suitable brood box configuration. It's bad ebough having to go through two boxes when doing inspections ... to have to go through THREE boxes out of choice ... just silly. You are providing small frames for the queen to lay in, the inevitable gaps between each box make life diifficult for the bees to nurse the brood and more chance of heat escaping - plus, every tme you separate the boxes you are adding to the disturbance of the brood nest and stressng your bees.

By all means improve the tyre on the wheel, make it from better materials, adjust the spokes and bearings but for goodness sake lets not forget the best shape for a wheel (proven since the first wheel was invented) is round ,....

 

[bobba]

Point taken Pargyle about the experimentation.

Bee keeping is a hobby for me and nothing more, so I am just having a bit of fun playing around.

My experiment is to try repeat what I did last year. And remember Pargyle, you helped me a lot last year when deciding when to put supers on. So I think you deserve some of the credit for my last years success. If I had not stumbled on this method by mistake, then seen the vid by Canadian beekeeper, there is no way I would be trying it now.

Another way of thinking about what I am doing is like this. I am basically running a brood + 1/2, then using no QE for the first super. So its like a hybrid QE/ No QE method. Does not seem so nuts when you look at it like that right? (I hope). The brood box setup does not matter, I am just using what I have.

I blieve in the merits of not using a QE, ie to allow the bees to make a pyramid shaped brood nest that moves down. However I want some CC, so must use a QE for the CC supers.

Having 1/2 and full broods is a pain though. Hence why I am pondering going triple half or double full in the future.

Remember a lot of my decisions are influenced by what kit I have. So please if anyone is insane enough to try copy my method, than please work with what you have and focus on the principle rather than thinking you need the same stuff as me. And wait a few years and see how I get on 1st....

My method will probably prove to be more faff than its worth, but I am still a noob so don't mind for now.

 

[Curly green finger's]

And some try to reinvent what many beekeepers have tried before only to find that the 'new experiment' didn't work any better for them than it did for the previous exponents (who, by now have moved on to the more proven' method).

You all know me ... I'm always game to try something new or seek to improve on something that does not quite work ... but there's not very much in beekeeping that has not been tried before and I like to think that I don't repeat the mistakes or failed experiments of my predecessors.

If you are using standard nationals it's pretty much proven that a single national box will be insufficient to contain most moden bee strains in the season ... I can see that brood and a half (whilst I personally dislike this format) meets some of the need .. I can see that double brood will usually meet all of the need and permits the same size brood frames in both brood boxes. I personally think that the bees prefer to have their brood all in one box - they certainly don't split the combs horizontally in the wild out of choice.

HOWEVER ... I totally fail to see any real benefit of Brood plus two supers as a suitable brood box configuration. It's bad ebough having to go through two boxes when doing inspections ... to have to go through THREE boxes out of choice ... just silly. You are providing small frames for the queen to lay in, the inevitable gaps between each box make life diifficult for the bees to nurse the brood and more chance of heat escaping - plus, every tme you separate the boxes you are adding to the disturbance of the brood nest and stressng your bees.

By all means improve the tyre on the wheel, make it from better materials, adjust the spokes and bearings but for goodness sake lets not forget the best shape for a wheel (proven since the first wheel was invented) is round ,....

Variety of life

And some try to reinvent what many beekeepers have tried before only to find that the 'new experiment' didn't work any better for them than it did for the previous exponents (who, by now have moved on to the more proven' method).

You all know me ... I'm always game to try something new or seek to improve on something that does not quite work ... but there's not very much in beekeeping that has not been tried before and I like to think that I don't repeat the mistakes or failed experiments of my predecessors.

If you are using standard nationals it's pretty much proven that a single national box will be insufficient to contain most moden bee strains in the season ... I can see that brood and a half (whilst I personally dislike this format) meets some of the need .. I can see that double brood will usually meet all of the need and permits the same size brood frames in both brood boxes. I personally think that the bees prefer to have their brood all in one box - they certainly don't split the combs horizontally in the wild out of choice.

HOWEVER ... I totally fail to see any real benefit of Brood plus two supers as a suitable brood box configuration. It's bad ebough having to go through two boxes when doing inspections ... to have to go through THREE boxes out of choice ... just silly. You are providing small frames for the queen to lay in, the inevitable gaps between each box make life diifficult for the bees to nurse the brood and more chance of heat escaping - plus, every tme you separate the boxes you are adding to the disturbance of the brood nest and stressng your bees.

By all means improve the tyre on the wheel, make it from better materials, adjust the spokes and bearings but for goodness sake lets not forget the best shape for a wheel (proven since the first wheel was invented) is round ,....

I don't think it's silly I have three box hives which are wintered on that configuration and have wintered on there own stores if the colony is not so big I remove the nadir I use box reversals and I take nucs from the brood box or donate brood to other colonys.
These colonys I like to use for production none of them have swarmed either these are two /three year old colonys.

Im not promoting it but it works for me as I tend to have more supers than brood boxes it's a way of also utilising my equipment.

 

[bobba]

Variety of life

I don't think it's silly I have three box hives which are wintered on that configuration and have wintered on there own stores if the colony is not so big I remove the nadir I use box reversals and I take nucs from the brood box or donate brood to other colonys.
These colonys I like to use for production none of them have swarmed either these are two /three year old colonys.

Im not promoting it but it works for me as I tend to have more supers than brood boxes it's a way of also utilising my equipment.

Thanks Curly, Its good to hear you have used a 3 box system similar to what I plan to try this year. I am hoping it will reduce swarming instinct too.

I have received a lot less flack than I thought I would for suggesting this plan. And no one has given any solid reasons why its so bad i should avoid it at all costs. Obviously it has some disadvantages. But nothing to stop me having a try.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Thanks Curly, Its good to hear you have used a 3 box system similar to what I plan to try this year. I am hoping it will reduce swarming instinct too.

I have received a lot less flack than I thought I would for suggesting this plan. And no one has given any solid reasons why its so bad i should avoid it at all costs. Obviously it has some disadvantages. But nothing to stop me having a try.

Well good luck with a bit of fair weather we will have a good season enjoy your experimentationsb

 

[pargyle]

Thanks Curly, Its good to hear you have used a 3 box system similar to what I plan to try this year. I am hoping it will reduce swarming instinct too.

I have received a lot less flack than I thought I would for suggesting this plan. And no one has given any solid reasons why its so bad i should avoid it at all costs. Obviously it has some disadvantages. But nothing to stop me having a try.

Well good luck with a bit of fair weather we will have a good season enjoy your experimentationsb

Looks like the Square Wheel and Flat Earth Society is gaining a couple of new members ....

 

[Curly green finger's]

Looks like the Square Wheel and Flat Earth Society is gaining a couple of new members ....

I've had a look on the Internet there is only a handful of members