Apis mellifera mellifera

[greatbritishhoney]

I would suggest as a starting point for people to get a little more scientific about the whole thing.

How? Can you give an example?

This is a genuine question, by the way.

 

[madasafish]

Is there an agreed definition (biological) of AMM?

If not, waste of electrons so far...

 

[mbc]

An international organisation dedicated to this marvellous subspecies of a wonderfull insect :
http://www.sicamm.org/WhatApis.html

 

[Poly Hive]

madasafish? As I understand it the definition is in the book by Ruttner.

CRG always gets on his DNA hobby horse as based in London AMM is more than a bit scarce there.

I may be the only one on the forum who has worked AMM but in my mind, and Bernards too I had AMM for some years and took the BIBBa workshop and did the measurements and so on and so forth and had Discoidal shifts clean off Ruttners scale.

PH

 

[DanBee]

An international organisation dedicated to this marvellous subspecies of a wonderfull insect :
http://www.sicamm.org/WhatApis.html

The problem is that SICAMM, like BIBBA, exists to promote Amm, so I wouldn't expect a balanced view of Amm vs. Am whatever. That's not a dig, by the way, just that I wouldn't expect the Ford owners club to wax lyrical about Vauxhalls

 

[DanBee]

As I understand it the definition is in the book by Ruttner.

I'd like a copy of that but I believe it is out of print. In the absence of that, Br. Adam's 'In search of the best strains of honey bees' provides a reasonable, first-hand account. Yes, you might think him biased but he did travel Europe extensively and document what he saw, comparatively, in the bees in the mid 20th century.

I may be the only one on the forum who has worked AMM but in my mind, and Bernards too I had AMM for some years and took the BIBBa workshop and did the measurements and so on and so forth and had Discoidal shifts clean off Ruttners scale.

Herein lies one of the problems I have with morphometry. It's about clustering samples by physical characteristics to indicate common genes. Let's sidestep the issue of whether the physical characteristics measured are definite and unambiguous indicators for now.

What I find difficult is that the plots should indicate racial groupings by distinct clusters around various points on the graphs, but in the case of Amm it's ascribed a whole corner and anything beyond. Thus we have the guidance from Ruttner et al as to which metrics correspond to Amm, but for some samples we have the peculiar concept of them being "off the scale" but still considered Amm. Surely such "off the scale" samples are forming their own "beyond Amm" cluster? If they were "off the scale" in any other direction they would be considered non Amm.

 

[Crg]

How? Can you give an example?

This is a genuine question, by the way.

Understand basic genetics would be a good start, and thinking through what happens when you select on looks only.

Reading up on papers already covering topics to do with AMM, many of which have been linked to within this forum.

 

[Crg]

CRG always gets on his DNA hobby horse as based in London AMM is more than a bit scarce there.

It has nothing to do with where I am, it's just being logical.

If you want to play around with measuring how many toes your bees it really doesn't matter to me. It's been pointed out many times the problems with going by measuring how bees look, so it's obvious that for all that you go on about AMM you don't mind whether the UK stock is preserved.

 

[Poly Hive]

It would appear that BIBBA still have faith in wing measurements as per their DL page.

http://www.bibba.com/downloads.php

PH

 

[For want of a better word]

Can anyone steer me towards a peer reviewed website on the mitochondrial DNA investigations to establish the True AMM type?
Must be something out there?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Understand basic genetics would be a good start, and thinking through what happens when you select on looks only.

Reading up on papers already covering topics to do with AMM, many of which have been linked to within this forum.

Crg, apologies for not being scientifically minded, but I don't think that should exclude me from having and interest in AMM.
I'm not what you might call an "AMM enthusiast" but I, like many others, am intriguied by the possibilities of selecting for AMM when breeding.
So, my question was really a practical one - what's the best way to test for AMM?

 

[madasafish]

So lets get this clear:
the ONLY reliable way to identify AMM bees is by DNA.

If so, why the fuss? If colour,temperament, productiivity and longevity are no better than other bees, why bother?

 

[DanBee]

madasafish? As I understand it the definition is in the book by Ruttner.

Having been through the bookshelf I do have a copy of The Dark European Honeybee by Ruttner. This one attempts to answer the questions "Have dark european honeybees survived?", and does indeed cover morphometry of mellifera mellifera.

However it does not cover morphometry of the other common European races. So it's fine for morphometry of Amm, but if you're interested in a comparison with any other races or indeed hybrids, then "If you're going there I wouldn't start from here" applies.

I understood there was another book by Ruttner that compared and catalogued the European races & hybrids...?

 

[susbees]

True Keith, but I think we have to be careful of this trend of people selling bees / queens as "nice dark bees" as though they are AMM, without having done any form of testing. It's a bit misleading and it doesn't do the AMM cause any good IMO.

Agreed...I see the London dark bees on a certain online auction site didn't sell. Maybe common sense is oozing out...

Worth mentioning perhaps in case it isn't obvious that there is a difference between yellow bees and queens and some bees in an Amm-ish colony having an orangy burnished stripe.

There's nothing wrong IMHO in selecting for native-type characteristics if coupled with good behaviour. Ought to save on the syrup bills, over-winter more reliably and build up a bit more in-tune with the season if nothing else.

We shall see...

 

[susbees]

So lets get this clear:
the ONLY reliable way to identify AMM bees is by DNA.

If so, why the fuss? If colour,temperament, productiivity and longevity are no better than other bees, why bother?

That's simply not the case.

 

[drstitson]

"he London dark bees on a certain online auction site"

the seller of said item claims provenance based on the fact the parent colonies were sold by the proprietor of said auction site.

anyone know anything about B4B BBBs/AMM???? (i note that there is now a listing for some more of them direct from the bossman).

 

[susbees]

"he London dark bees on a certain online auction site"

the seller of said item claims provenance based on the fact the parent colonies were sold by the proprietor of said auction site.

anyone know anything about B4B BBBs/AMM???? (i note that there is now a listing for some more of them direct from the bossman).

There always is....he has dozens of hives in his garden. And a lot of carni blood which confuses the colour argument somewhat.

 

[For want of a better word]

Can anyone steer me towards a peer reviewed website on the mitochondrial DNA investigations to establish the True AMM type?
Must be something out there?

A PhD for someone then.......

 

[susbees]

A PhD for someone then.......

LASI outsource to someone in Denmark whose name escapes me.

 

[For want of a better word]

LASI outsource to someone in Denmark whose name escapes me.

Thanks
would be interesting research to follow... keep us posted please