After reading through the Renegade beekeeper in Stirlingshire thread

[BeeKeyPlayer]

The original cartoons are quite funny.

 

[RJC]

Whilst I accept that pollinators in general (including many of our native bee species - bumbles and solitary bees) are in dire straits there is no evidence that honey bees are in decline in the UK and need any sort of assistance other than that currently offered by the myriad numbers of hobbyist and commercial beekeepers alike. You could argue that truly wild (ie: not in the care of a beekeeper) colonies of honey bees are more of a rarity than they were a couple of centuries ago but we have developed a symbiotic relationship with these insects and any reduction in wild colonies is more than compensated for by 'kept' bees. If honey bees did not enjoy or appreciate the homes and attention they are given by beekeepers then they would not continue to live in our hives. Honeybees are still independent, partially wild, creatures and we have all experienced colonies who take exception to what we have on offer.

The OP of the original thread to which this thread refers started off with the premise that she felt (from her research) that honey bees were in need of conservation. It was a flawed premise - if she had been talking about other bee species I would have been the first to agree.

The 'tensions' arose because views were presented that were based in a misinformed position to start with that was then compounded by a suggestion that a novel and innovative 'bottle hive' may be a suitable container in which to keep bees. This was appropriately challenged.

So, yes, in some respects there is a difference in perspective but there is no requirement for anyone to be understanding or accepting of a perspective that has serious flaws. A flawed idea is a flawed idea - you can wrap it up in kind words and understanding but, at the end of the day, a bad idea is a bad idea.

I agree with all of this; I'd just be a little wary of saying or implying that (wild) honeybees don't need conservation efforts as they are not endangered due to beekeeping. I am not here intending to open up another AMM type thread, but in many other species domestication and selective breeding, and beekeepers do exert a selection pressure, even if not deliberately done, has lead to concerns about a narrowing of the gene pool. For example in many crop plants there is now considerable interest in their their wild relatives and their conservation as in the face of increasing threats, eg from climate change they may well labour useful genetics which hitherto have not been valued in their domesticated cousins.

 

[pargyle]

I agree with all of this; I'd just be a little wary of saying or implying that (wild) honeybees don't need conservation efforts as they are not endangered due to beekeeping. I am not here intending to open up another AMM type thread, but in many other species domestication and selective breeding, and beekeepers do exert a selection pressure, even if not deliberately done, has lead to concerns about a narrowing of the gene pool. For example in many crop plants there is now considerable interest in their their wild relatives and their conservation as in the face of increasing threats, eg from climate change they may well labour useful genetics which hitherto have not been valued in their domesticated cousins.

That's a considered and interesting perspective. .. it's going to be impossible after the multiple introductions of other strains of bees over the last 150 years (and of course the decimation of AMM as a result of the IOW disease in 1913) to ever see a situation where 'wild' bees in the UK are going to be anything other than feral mongrels. There are still isolated pockets, apparently, of near true AMM and protected status of these areas will ensure that they remain but ... the prospect of ever being able to influence our non-kept colonies, in general, is nothing more than a pipe dream IMO.

Whether the current gene pool is narrowing or widening as a result of pressure from beekeepers is a matter for debate. I don't want to open this thread up to the subject of whether imports are good or bad so lets not go there - but I'm interested to know how people think we could improve the existing matrix of 'wild' bee colonies and indeed if there is any point in trying. Given that the cat is already out of the bag and has been since the early 20th century are we largely stuck with the status quo ?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Whilst I accept that pollinators in general (including many of our native bee species - bumbles and solitary bees) are in dire straits there is no evidence that honey bees are in decline in the UK and need any sort of assistance other than that currently offered by the myriad numbers of hobbyist and commercial beekeepers alike. You could argue that truly wild (ie: not in the care of a beekeeper) colonies of honey bees are more of a rarity than they were a couple of centuries ago but we have developed a symbiotic relationship with these insects and any reduction in wild colonies is more than compensated for by 'kept' bees. If honey bees did not enjoy or appreciate the homes and attention they are given by beekeepers then they would not continue to live in our hives. Honeybees are still independent, partially wild, creatures and we have all experienced colonies who take exception to what we have on offer.

The OP of the original thread to which this thread refers started off with the premise that she felt (from her research) that honey bees were in need of conservation. It was a flawed premise - if she had been talking about other bee species I would have been the first to agree.

The 'tensions' arose because views were presented that were based in a misinformed position to start with that was then compounded by a suggestion that a novel and innovative 'bottle hive' may be a suitable container in which to keep bees. This was appropriately challenged.

So, yes, in some respects there is a difference in perspective but there is no requirement for anyone to be understanding or accepting of a perspective that has serious flaws. A flawed idea is a flawed idea - you can wrap it up in kind words and understanding but, at the end of the day, a bad idea is a bad idea.

Well, beekeepers have undoubtedly changed what the wild be is, and have been - and some argue (me for example) that they still are - making the existence of wild bees difficult. That is, some may think, a gross interference (and not just to the species, the local races, but to the wider ecology). The wild bee has been, and continues to be stripped of assets that enable it to thrive.

With that said, the damage is not (yet) fatal; were all beeking to stop wild bees assembled from the genetic mix would sort themselves out and carry on.

To argue that beekeepers make up for this decline, and all is well will not be accepted by allcomers. There are very obvious holes in the argument. Suppose, for example, the bee was to be fully domesticated - what then for local ecologies that have no beekeepers?

I have to say therefore that I disagree with your premise. Wild bees do need taking care of, just as the whole ecology does.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have to say therefore that I disagree with your premise. Wild bees do need taking care of, just as the whole ecology does.

Do you mean wild honey bees or wild bees or both?
And how does commercial honey production exist alongside ?

 

[Murox]

The urgently needed debate about our collective future and studying relationships between living organisms and their physical environment rather presupposes that habitat and biodiversity are considered universally important.

“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” —Margaret Mead.

 

[RJC]

That's a considered and interesting perspective. ..

Thanks - see attached if you are interested in looking further at the plant side of things Crop Wild Relatives: Plant conservation for food security - NERR037

 

[Beesnaturally]

Do you mean wild honey bees or wild bees or both?
And how does commercial honey production exist alongside ?

Yes, we are talking about honeybees, but of course other wild bee species also need our care.

How commercial honeybee operation exists alongside is where the (main) tensions arise. How does biodiversity sit alongside agriculture generally?

This is the arena where we can look at options and priorities, and locate ways of doing things that are helpful ourselves, if we want to.

My own preference is that we don't simply stand by while honeybees are fully domesticated to the detriment of the natural ecology. That's some way off yet, but we have gone a long way in that direction already, and its my choice try to defend the natural order - to the maximum. That just means: understand the mechanisms, and do what we can protect biodiversity.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I do agree there are some snappy replies to questions on here that would probably be better not said but we all tap the keyboard without thinking sometimes.
I think the indication on how good this Forum is is the quantity of posts and the number of contributors. Most forums that I belong to seem to have a couple of posts a day at their busiest. - maybe that's just me!,,,,,,

I see an old thread has resurfaced and browsing through it I came across this which pretty well sums up my thoughts.
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/supercedure-and-swarm-cells-at-the-same-time.50855/post-777515

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well there are three moderators here all with differing levels of tolerance. I’m not easily offended and like to hope most people aren’t. I make no apologies if that comes through the way I moderate. People are here to discuss bees not how they are offended. If something is bothering a poster the correct procedure is to report a post not garner opinion on how dreadful another member might be behaving.

 

[blackcloud]

My job used to involve dealing with staff from different parts of the same national company.
The behaviour and attitude of the staff was clearly grouped to the distribution centres they were located in.
Some were decent,helpful, happy go lucky, get on with it types while others were,well - vile ********.
Visiting their respective bases it was immediately apparent that the management style was the biggest contributor.

Monkey see - monkey do.

 

[Anduril]

How commercial honeybee operation exists alongside is where the (main) tensions arise.

What tensions?

 

[Beesnaturally]

What tensions?

For example, people making a living from their bees are unlikely to want people beekeeping carelessly near them - the threat of disease would be a cause for concern.

People wanting to see bees able to live independently on the other hand will not be keen on foriegn and treatment-dependent strains, as they dilute the local adapted genetics.

Both those positions can be generalised - group x doesn't like the idea of what group y wants to do and vice versa.

However: since this root tension is often unrecognised we get in a muddle, and start fighting among ourselves.

 

[Anduril]

For example, people making a living from their bees are unlikely to want people beekeeping carelessly near them - the threat of disease would be a cause for concern.

People wanting to see bees able to live independently on the other hand will not be keen on foriegn and treatment-dependent strains, as they dilute the local adapted genetics.

Both those positions can be generalised - group x doesn't like the idea of what group y wants to do and vice versa.

However: since this root tension is often unrecognised we get in a muddle, and start fighting among ourselves.

Firstly we live on a tiny island, whether you are a hobbyist or bee farmer, if you are registered with beebase, you will note that there can be over 100 apiary sites within 10 Km of your site. The information is anonymous, but, by your thinking then there would have to be tensions between hobbyists, some of which could be beekeeping carelessly near you. This is one reason why we have bee inspectors, inspecting apiaries in known areas of disease outbreaks. Bee farmers can be DASH accredited by the NBU. If they meet the requirements, they are allowed to self regulate.
Bee farmers also have pollination services for fruit and veg, I would have to include the seed industry which is worth billions globally.
Now to the selling of queens and nucs, while bee farmers offer this service, it is primarily hobbyist led, who push the demand for early queens, these are often cheaper than home grown ones. If you want British AMM's then availability cannot meet the demand required on a yearly basis. Not all bee farmers rely on foreign stock, some have their own local stock to sell, but due to the constraints of the season, only provide a limited stock. Also even the local stock are medicated. You talk of treatment dependent strains, once you move bees/queens out of an area of non treatment, the next generation will be relying on the drones local to that area and will lose the traits from the mother queen.
In conclusion hobbyists and bee farmers need each other and treatment free and treatment dependent beekeepers need each other.

 

[madasafish]

For example, people making a living from their bees are unlikely to want people beekeeping carelessly near them - the threat of disease would be a cause for concern.

People wanting to see bees able to live independently on the other hand will not be keen on foriegn and treatment-dependent strains, as they dilute the local adapted genetics.

Both those positions can be generalised - group x doesn't like the idea of what group y wants to do and vice versa.

However: since this root tension is often unrecognised we get in a muddle, and start fighting among ourselves.

Those "locally adapted genes" have a mixed history. I assume you have heard of Isle of Wight disease?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Not really Anduril. Hobbyists can be split into the same groups: primarily concerned about their bees, or primarily concerned about the genetics (and conditions) that allow wild bees to exist.

The same tension therefore exists within the hobbyists.

I can't see how anything else you say bears on my point.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Those "locally adapted genes" have a mixed history. I assume you have heard of Isle of Wight disease?

Yes they do. Yes I have. How does this bear on my point?

 

[Anduril]

Hobbyists can be split into the same groups: primarily concerned about their bees, or primarily concerned about the genetics (and conditions) that allow wild bees to exist.

Your answer only provides one group.
We are all concerned about our bees, this in essence includes genetics and conditions to our local environs, otherwise we would have dead bees.
You talk of treatment dependent strains, once you move bees/queens out of an area of non treatment, the next generation will be relying on the drones local to that area and will lose the traits from the mother queen.
As hobbyists, we cannot flood the area with enough drones to meet our personal preferences/requirements and inevitably we end up buying more and more queens to satisfy our needs. We end up chasing our tails!

 

[Amari]

What is a curate's egg?? Never heard that expression.

That's because we don't have them here in Suffolk, Lottie. Best eggs in the UK!

 

[Beesnaturally]

Your answer only provides one group.
We are all concerned about our bees, this in essence includes genetics and conditions to our local environs, otherwise we would have dead bees.
You talk of treatment dependent strains, once you move bees/queens out of an area of non treatment, the next generation will be relying on the drones local to that area and will lose the traits from the mother queen.
As hobbyists, we cannot flood the area with enough drones to meet our personal preferences/requirements and inevitably we end up buying more and more queens to satisfy our needs. We end up chasing our tails!

At risk of hijacking the thread: 'conservationist' beekeepers are as much concerned for wild honey bees as for the bees in their hives. They try to avoid obstructing the natural development of resistance in those bees living freely around them by not medicating or otherwise helping the bees intheir care. They consider the thing in their care to be the local breeding population. Recognising the benefits of local adaptation, they don't buy in queens, but raise their own.

Some have adapted feral (wild) bees around them, and simply plug into the ambient genetics. Other don't. To overcome most obstances you you can work in concert with others (local breeding groups).

It is often the case that you _can_ do things to help wild bees. That in turn helps the local ecology around you. 'Your' bees are the bees around you as well as the ones in your hives. 'Our bees' are wild bees as a group. Like the rest of the ecology, they belong to all of us, and to future generations.

That is the perspective of this particular conservationist-minded beekeeper.