After reading through the Renegade beekeeper in Stirlingshire thread

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Last night I read through the whole of the Renegade beekeeper in Stirlingshire thread. I kept me awake late, so it must have been compelling. A number of people spent a considerable amount of time sharing ideas and insights and commenting on those already posted. It was one of many examples of the Forum working well.

There was also a considerable amount of time and brain space taken up with posts commenting on the tone of other posts (describing them as toxic etc) and pondering what makes people post in such a disrespectful way.

In vain did Philip (@pargyle) claim that the posters on the forum, while being 'robust', would not attack other people, no matter how dismissive they were of ideas which they disagreed with. The problem is that although it's perfectly fine to say that an idea is nonsense or rubbish, the one time it's not okay to do that is when you're addressing the person who has just expressed such an idea, especially when you are not already acquainted. That IS offensive, and many leave this forum because of this.

This is not new - or snowflakey. I have clear memories of seeing this happen five or six decades ago, and of course, frequently since.

I notice that Bee-L does not allow posters to describe other posts in this way.

I'm also going to take the chance here to mention (again) that many online groups do not allow anonymity. One effect of using real names that I would welcome is the ending of the cringe-making situation where a poster mistakes someone's gender by taking the first few letters of a name and assuming it to be a real first name. Not everyone looks for the little figure dressed in a frock - or not.

 

[pargyle]

I'm sorry but from where I sit (and I read virtually every post in here) I do not recognise the forum you describe or witness the exodus of new beekeepers. Most new beekeepers arrive here either seeking advice prior to starting or having started and found themselves in circumstances they cannot fathom or handle... they all receive good advice usually and there are many examples of forum menbers going well beyond generosity... donating time and in some cases bees and equipment to people who need such assistance.

When people arrive as newbies with fixed ideas and notions of changing the face of beekeeping is it surprising that they are rebuffed ,? There are a few posts occasionally that would be better left as thoughts but I feel the mods are quick to remove them although as part time unpaid keepers of the peace it is enough just to keep pace with the flow of posts in this very lively and active forum. I have little desire to see user names changed to real names .. I'm not anonymous but that is my choice ... not everyone wants to be visible.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Bee-L is not a forum but a mailing list
And as such to quote “BEE-L is moderated and every post is scrutinized to reduce chatter and minimize "noise' before being sent to all recipients.”
The thread in question would not have been allowed
This forum us replete with good advice and generosity and as members grow and help each other that generosity is in turn passed to newer members.
I think you do them a disservice describing the forum as you have

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I'm sorry but from where I sit (and I read virtually every post in here) I do not recognise the forum you describe or witness the exodus of new beekeepers.

I regret the impression I have given. I've said here before, and written in our BKA newsletter, about what a wonderful resource this forum is, and how grateful I am for the time I have spent here, and the help, advice and ideas I have gleaned from it. That's why I wrote: 'A number of people spent a considerable amount of time sharing ideas and insights and commenting on those already posted. It was one of many examples of the Forum working well.'

But although I see only a fraction of the posts on the Forum, I have clear memories of occasions when posters who are new to the Forum feel disrespected. And in all these cases I've felt that it was so unnecessary, and could easily have been avoided. It's why I made my point about the use of the words 'rubbish' and 'nonsense' and their potential to cause offence.

Bee-L is not a forum but a mailing list

I was completely unaware of the distinction. But that doesn't necessarily mean that some of their rules for exchanges between posters are are not worth heeding - not that I can find said rules now, though I remember some of the content.

This forum us replete with good advice and generosity and as members grow and help each other that generosity is in turn passed to newer members.
I think you do them a disservice describing the forum as you have

I couldn't agree more - with both statements. As I've already stated, I never underestimate the generosity of many of the people who write here, patiently explaining the same thing time and time again, finely tuned to the particular poster asking the same old question this particular time. My reason for writing as I did is that some quick, snappy replies result in those asking for support not realising the full extent of what is being offered and freely available here.

 

[Erichalfbee]

In which case you’d agree the forum is a Curate’s egg and I would hope the good parts outweigh the bad.
It’s not a perfect world and neither are the mods but all three of us try our best

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

In which case you’d agree the forum is a Curate’s egg and I would hope the good parts outweigh the bad.
It’s not a perfect world and neither are the mods but all three of us try our best

Totally agree. I have the highest respect and appreciation for the work and generosity of the mods.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I do agree there are some snappy replies to questions on here that would probably be better not said but we all tap the keyboard without thinking sometimes.
I think the indication on how good this Forum is is the quantity of posts and the number of contributors. Most forums that I belong to seem to have a couple of posts a day at their busiest. - maybe that's just me!,,,,,,

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Most forums that I belong to

This is the only forum I belong to - now that Bee-L doesn't count

 

[pargyle]

I do agree there are some snappy replies to questions on here that would probably be better not said but we all tap the keyboard without thinking sometimes.
I think the indication on how good this Forum is is the quantity of posts and the number of contributors. Most forums that I belong to seem to have a couple of posts a day at their busiest. - maybe that's just me!,,,,,,

Yes ..It's sometimes hard to keep up and the variety of threads - even the ones we don't cherish - makes it compulsive reading. As in life there are all sorts thrust together and there will, inevitably, be differing opinions and disagreements. It's a lot more agreeable than some forums I've been on in the past - some of which descend into verbal warfare at the meer mention of some topics ... It's beekeeping - we all know the line 'Ask five beekeepers the same question and you will get six different answers' ... well, the forum is no exception.

I'd like to think that we are generally accepting and tolerant but - sometimes passion gets in the way of good sense and our fingers disconnect from our brains. I'm certain we all have the health and well being of our bees at the core of our beekeeping - no matter whether we keep them in a tin can or a cardboard box - the bees usually forgive us for what we inflict on them so perhaps we should forgive the occasional renegade beekeeper as well.

 

[Wilco]

we are generally accepting

Can I not accept this in a major way?

 

[pargyle]

Can I not accept this in a major way?

No ... major acceptance will get you into trouble - stick to generally - much safer !

 

[Newbeeneil]

Major Acceptance..... I think I know him!

 

[Wilco]

No ... major acceptance will get you into trouble - stick to generally - much safer !

I'm ok with trouble as long as corporal punishment isn't involved.

 

[pargyle]

I'm ok with trouble as long as corporal punishment isn't involved.

I think I remember Corporal Punishment .... wasn't he in Carry on Sergeant ?

(I thought I'd get that in before Newbeeneil got his hands on it !)

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ah yes. Private Golightly.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm certain we all have the health and well being of our bees at the core of our beekeeping - no matter whether we keep them in a tin can or a cardboard box - the bees usually forgive us for what we inflict on them so perhaps we should forgive the occasional renegade beekeeper as well.

I think that among the causes of tension is an - understandable- underlying difference of perspective as to what constitutes 'our' bees.

At its simplest, some people are concerned with the wider bee population, the species. Others are concerned with just the bees under their control.

Tensions arise, both because they often fail see where the other is coming from, and because what each does affects the other.

 

[Lottie]

In which case you’d agree the forum is a Curate’s egg and I would hope the good parts outweigh the bad.
It’s not a perfect world and neither are the mods but all three of us try our best

What is a curate's egg?? Never heard that expression.

 

[pargyle]

I think that among the causes of tension is an - understandable- underlying difference of perspective as to what constitutes 'our' bees.

At its simplest, some people are concerned with the wider bee population, the species. Others are concerned with just the bees under their control.

Tensions arise, both because they often fail see where the other is coming from, and because what each does affects the other.

Whilst I accept that pollinators in general (including many of our native bee species - bumbles and solitary bees) are in dire straits there is no evidence that honey bees are in decline in the UK and need any sort of assistance other than that currently offered by the myriad numbers of hobbyist and commercial beekeepers alike. You could argue that truly wild (ie: not in the care of a beekeeper) colonies of honey bees are more of a rarity than they were a couple of centuries ago but we have developed a symbiotic relationship with these insects and any reduction in wild colonies is more than compensated for by 'kept' bees. If honey bees did not enjoy or appreciate the homes and attention they are given by beekeepers then they would not continue to live in our hives. Honeybees are still independent, partially wild, creatures and we have all experienced colonies who take exception to what we have on offer.

The OP of the original thread to which this thread refers started off with the premise that she felt (from her research) that honey bees were in need of conservation. It was a flawed premise - if she had been talking about other bee species I would have been the first to agree.

The 'tensions' arose because views were presented that were based in a misinformed position to start with that was then compounded by a suggestion that a novel and innovative 'bottle hive' may be a suitable container in which to keep bees. This was appropriately challenged.

So, yes, in some respects there is a difference in perspective but there is no requirement for anyone to be understanding or accepting of a perspective that has serious flaws. A flawed idea is a flawed idea - you can wrap it up in kind words and understanding but, at the end of the day, a bad idea is a bad idea.

 

[RJC]

In which case you’d agree the forum is a Curate’s egg and I would hope the good parts outweigh the bad.
It’s not a perfect world and neither are the mods but all three of us try our best

No, I don't think it is. The Curate's egg was all bad; the Curate just said it was good in parts to avoid upsetting his host!

 

[pargyle]

What is a curate's egg?? Never heard that expression.

It comes from a very very old cartoon in a copy of Punch, I think, where the Bishop and a Curate are having breakfast together and the Bishop is enquiring whether the curate's egg is bad and the curate replies that it is only partially bad. I think it was political comment at the time of the discrepancy in living conditions between those at the top of the church hierarchy and those at the bottom.

Hence ... a curates egg - some good and some bad in it.