Court case abpout OTC

[charlievictorbravo]

i bet there isnt one beekeeper on this forum that in his time has not fallen foulof one or more of the VMD or other APHA/DERFRA regualtions

... which raised the prospect of the VMD looking for another high profile target!

I think we all ought to be more circumspect about what we say on this forum about treatments used in case it provides the initial evidence to justify a detailed enquiry by the authorities. As ITLD has found out, once they get their talons into you, they won't let go and, even if you're innocent, you'll have to spend money defending yourself.

CVB

 

[REDWOOD]

Well we certainly need our voices heard and let the VDM people know where we are coming from. To shut up and say nothing is admitting defeat but collectively we could change things. Better to educate a Beekeeper than to dishonour one. Make it essential for all Beekeeper's to do an exam on treating bees then there will be no need of expensive medicines. If anyone asks I don't treat my bees with anything [emoji4]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[madasafish]

... which raised the prospect of the VMD looking for another high profile target!

I think we all ought to be more circumspect about what we say on this forum about treatments used in case it provides the initial evidence to justify a detailed enquiry by the authorities. As ITLD has found out, once they get their talons into you, they won't let go and, even if you're innocent, you'll have to spend money defending yourself.

CVB

Some of us appear to have gone very quiet on the issue.. around Autumn..

 

[derekm]

A reason to being treatment free?... unless they then decide to make treatment compulsory

 

[madasafish]

A reason to being treatment free?... unless they then decide to make treatment compulsory

Well that would be fun. Which treatment? Stand by for a 10 year discussion, the choice made.. and a realisation that things move on and teh choice has been superceded.

And what about agreement between the Welsh Scottish and English BKA? No point in having differing standards. So add another 15 years to the 10 above...

Cynical? Me? Never...

 

[Madge]

i bet there isnt one beekeeper on this forum that in his time has not fallen foulof one or more of the VMD or other APHA/DERFRA regualtions

Why do you think that? What regulations are you thinking of that might be so easily breached?
ITLD's case was quite special.

 

[Beefriendly]

Why do you think that? What regulations are you thinking of that might be so easily breached?
ITLD's case was quite special.

I suspect they may be intimating that some urban and rural guerrilla beekeepers may be defying the law of the land by using off the shelf pure Oxalic acid for vaporizing; rather than the legally available apibioxal that has been cut with glucose and silica and gums up your vaporizer.
Although I'm sure no-one on this forum would ever consider doing this....

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why do you think that? What regulations are you thinking of that might be so easily breached?
ITLD's case was quite special.

Quite a few people use essential oils in their hives too.
Is that permissible?
Adding them to water spray used in inspections is not allowed either?

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Quite a few people use essential oils in their hives too.
Is that permissible?
Adding them to water spray used in inspections is not allowed either?

My understanding (no detailed knowledge, just what I've heard) is that if the essential oils are to control the behaviour of the bees, as you would use smoke, it's ok. If you're using, say, Thymol in water to treat bees for Varroa mites, that's illegal.

This is where HiveClean had a problem - there was sufficient hint in their advertisements, and it contained enough treatment chemicals, to suggest HiveClean had crossed the line from being a "tonic" to being a "treatment" and the manufacturer did not want the expense of paying to get the testing done for registration, so the product was withdrawn.

CVB

 

[Finman]

.
Mixing atibiot using and varroa treatment stuffs? What is the idea?

 

[Finman]

My understanding (no detailed knowledge, just what I've heard) is that if the essential oils are to control the behaviour of the bees,

- Thymol in water to treat bees for Varroa mites, that's illegal.

- This is where HiveClean had a problem -


CVB

Essential oils are separated from nature about 150 different. They are aromatic nature chemicals. They are used as scents.

Practically one is effective against varroa. It is thymol

https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00891579/document

Hive Clean is practically oxalic acid, used as trickling.

Thymol works as gas. It does not affect on varroa as water solution.

.

 

[Finman]

Quite a few people use essential oils in their hives too.
?

More than usual. It is thymol and all its product names

Of course you may use orange tree leaves, or what ever you find from internet. Perhaps the English Court does not believe all and you are a free tax payer ...again. Perhaps court understand first time user?

 

[Erichalfbee]

My understanding (no detailed knowledge, just what I've heard) is that if the essential oils are to control the behaviour of the bees, as you would use smoke, it's ok. If you're using, say, Thymol in water to treat bees for Varroa mites, that's illegal.

This is where HiveClean had a problem - there was sufficient hint in their advertisements, and it contained enough treatment chemicals, to suggest HiveClean had crossed the line from being a "tonic" to being a "treatment" and the manufacturer did not want the expense of paying to get the testing done for registration, so the product was withdrawn.

CVB

It's a blurred line, then, open to interpretation.
Lots of people thymolise autumn syrup....to stop it fermenting or as nosema prophy?

 

[Finman]

It's a blurred line, then, open to interpretation.
Lots of people thymolise autumn syrup....to stop it fermenting or as nosema prophy?

So they did 54 years ago when I started . They stopped fermenting and moulding.

 

[derekm]

Be aware that secondary regulation can now be applied retrospectively as the dept in question can make a clarification of an existing regulation and then apply it to begin from the time that dept asserts it was intended .This started with section 58 of the Finance Act 2008.

They can assert that thymol was always intended to be within the scope of veterinary medicines and then prosecute every purchaser going back years.

 

[Finman]

They can assert that thymol was always intended to be within the scope of veterinary medicines and then prosecute every purchaser going back years.

At least you have then a good explanation to vanishing bees and beekeepers. Anyway, they are too much nowadays.
.

 

[Hivemaker.]

If you're using, say, Thymol in water to treat bees for Varroa mites, that's illegal.

What about using sugar as a direct varroa treatment....also illegal?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

It's a blurred line, then, open to interpretation.
Lots of people thymolise autumn syrup....to stop it fermenting or as nosema prophy?

Eventually there aren't going to be any beekeepers operating legally, few will be enrolled with associations and there will be no inspectors because there won't be any registered hives. Is that what defra or government want?
Fixing what isn't busted is never a wise step.

 

[Finman]

.
Have you any cases in court, how much you get jail for killing varroa with illegal methods?


In our legal system first somebody should press charges. And who that will be?

.

 

[alldigging]

I got a very nice letter from my lawyer enclosing his fee note. Seems he enjoyed the case and learned a lot from it.

How lovely!