For those interested in AMM

Finman · Oct 6, 2017

SDM said:
I guess most of us have got used to associations not caring about what membership wants.

A little bit money. Membership fee. Nothing else.

Quis Custodiet · Oct 6, 2017

Uncle Betty said:
Quis Custodiet said:

Assuming your anecdotes are true...

isn't that how you lot settle ALL your differences ?

As for religious denomination... what does it have to do with anything here ? I don't see the point in that at all.

edit - lost connection...

We have an explicit Federation policy of promoting Amm. However, all beekeepers are welcome, and the type of intolerant violence you describe would be abhorred as the abnormal that it is.

Click to expand...

Locutions as interesting as they are unwise.
You have made my points more effectively than I could ever hope to articulate them, not your intention but thank you very much anyway. But why do you not try to rise above the hate, the prejudice and violence? Ireland is a beautiful country why besmirch it with intolerance? Good day to you and enjoy the afternoon.

jenkinsbrynmair · Oct 6, 2017

Quis Custodiet said:
.....and good old Jenkins could not resist displaying his erudition!
We really do live in stirring times!

Only one here I can see doing the stirring

madasafish said:
Well let's think.
"Ban all imports of bees and promote home grown mongrels" is the official position of the BBKA.
That's worthy of millions of words of ridicule - all deserved.

I thought the whole raison d'etre of the BBKA was to be a target of ridicule?

madasafish · Oct 6, 2017

jenkinsbrynmair said:
Only one here I can see doing the stirring

I thought the whole raison d'etre of the BBKA was to be a target of ridicule?

"You might say that;I could not possibly comment.."

B+. · Oct 6, 2017

jenkinsbrynmair said:
I thought the whole raison d'etre of the BBKA was to be a target of ridicule?

That's really disappointing.
I don't want that sort of organisation representing me, and, I doubt anyone else does either. How do we turn this around?

Quis Custodiet · Oct 6, 2017

Into the lions den said:
Quis Custodiet said:

I thought my meaning to be perfectly clear. The subject......................

Thank you for the elaboration, I understand now to what it was, you were referring.

Click to expand...

Teemore · Oct 6, 2017

Quis Custodiet said:
....burnings, hives damaged by vehicles driving into them, hives riddled with shotgun pellets, de facto exclusion from some associations, intimidation of beekeepers living on their own....

Quis Custodiet, you, or rather your online persona, represent the sole entity I have encountered spreading these malignant tales. Why is this?
Beyond your posts, I am yet to find any evidence of such behaviour attributed to beekeepers on the island of Ireland. Fake news?

You give every appearance of a fifth columnist, creating divisions and distractions.

My experience of beekeeping across the island of Ireland is much more positive.

It is quite clear that you are "interested" in AMM only from the most negative perspective. Why then do you participate in these threads? Is it the case that you are bored, turning to your keyboard to stir things up? This is unhelpful and unhealthy. Rather than posting tumours in these threads, go out and get some fresh air. Go out and appreciate the beauty that is in these lands.

:judge:

Admin; how about locking this thread? No doubt someone will post a new thread when Jack Hassett's research paper is published.

Swarm · Oct 6, 2017

I can understand your feelings Teemore, it is poisonous posts like that I was getting at, not the abuse of individuals that ITLD wrongly assumed. *** for tat is only to be expected when every thread relating to Amm is visited by the same people, posting the same snide comments.
Notice even now the reference to 'Amm type' as if it chokes them to accept they exist.

For want of a better word · Oct 6, 2017

Quis Custodiet said:
Into the lions den said:

Have to completely disagree with that. It comes in broadly equal measure from both sides.

The main thrust of this thread at the moment, is the contents of a report relating to indigenous bees in Ireland, which is due to be published shortly.
I am privileged to be friends with many beekeepers throughout the island of Ireland; some keep AMM type bees, some imported bees and their hybrids, many differ from me in religion and they come from a wide social spectrum, one in fact is a Roman Catholic priest.
I have no reason whatsoever to believe that any of them would concur with your claim above and neither do I. So may I ask you to give your reasons why you believe the hive burnings, hives damaged by vehicles driving into them, hives riddled with shotgun pellets, de facto exclusion from some associations, intimidation of beekeepers living on their own....to name but some outrages "comes in broadly equal measure from both sides" here? If you were referring only to Scotland or England, then make that clear.

Click to expand...

and worthy of a BAN !

IMOHO

Yeghes da

Poly Hive · Oct 6, 2017

Well if they don't exist someone better tell Andrew.

PH

B+. · Oct 6, 2017

Poly Hive said:
Well if they don't exist someone better tell Andrew.

Even if they do exist, the question remains how they are propagated and authenticated. Then, there is the question of how their properties are measured and improved.

Quis Custodiet · Oct 6, 2017

Teemore said:
Quis Custodiet,............................................... go out and get some fresh air. Go out and appreciate the beauty that is in these lands.

....................:

It's raining quite heavily and also visibility is very poor.

Poly Hive · Oct 6, 2017

You are aware of Colonsay surely B+??

ID'd by DNA and all that good stuff?

PH

Brian Bush · Oct 6, 2017

B+. said:
Even if they do exist, the question remains how they are propagated and authenticated. Then, there is the question of how their properties are measured and improved.

Let us move this thread back to the original intention, please. I am appalled by the venom and rubbish posted on here.
AMM exist as a recognized subspecies of AM.
So do AMC AML and many other sub-species.
Buckfasts are a mongrel bee. They are not hybrids in the true sense. A hybrid is the result of mating two species, i.e a horse and a donkey to produce a mule or a hinney. Buckfasts are the result of selective mating of several sub-species.
B+ outlined the main traits that many, not all, beekeepers want from their bees.
For various reasons some strains of AMM would not meet these requirements.
In the mainland UK other subspecies of AM have been imported for many years a trade that increased with the railways. There are reports of live displays at the Great Exhibition in which various hive designs were exhibited with bees from Italy and elsewhere. ( before you jump in!! NO!! I am not old enough to remember the Great Exhibition!!!)
So then we move on to AMM compared with other sub-species. Despite claims there appears to be a lack of consistency in meeting the criteria regularly. It has been suggested that the members of BIBBA have not managed to ensure AMM have been selectively breed to exhibit the required traits. These desires are often quoted in being present in areas of AMM particularly in the bees of the Galtee group but there is very little export of these queens with the desired traits.
B+ uses AMC as they provide the traits, in particular calmness, which he and many others appreciate above all. Continental beekeepers, Ministries and Universities have got their acts together to improve their choices of sub-species. I watched a useful u-tube video some time ago of the use of the mating islands in the Baltic by Danish beeks. I would relish the opportunity to pay my fee and send my queens to a designated island to mate with drones to improve the strain. Unfortunately the BBKA are pursuing a policy of local mongrels being best suited to local conditions. This is fine as far as it goes but does little to overcome the issues, in particular very aggressive bees that many complain about. We have had so many imports, particularly in England, of sub-species that we cannot breed true without II. Mating of queens is a lottery. So I say well done to those who wish to keep AMM alive. Make sure that you have planned breeding schemes and work for improvement. It would be a sad world if the only dairy cow was a Holstein and we had no Jerseys!
For the rest of us I believe we should make as much use of the work undertaken by our colleagues on the Continent and work with them to improve our bees. At every opportunity I exhort my fellow club members to remove nasty strains from their hives. I am sure this request falls on deaf ears most of the time. I was pleased, however, that last time I made the plea there were a number of colleagues backing me up in the light of the terrible experiences they had faced this year.
Please fellow members, stop sniping at each other, don't personalize threads , read posts carefully and try and behave in a constructive way.
One final request!! Admin can we have an English spell checker, not an American one?? bee-smillie

B+. · Oct 6, 2017

Poly Hive said:
You are aware of Colonsay surely B+??

ID'd by DNA and all that good stuff?

PH

Of course.
I was trying to be constructive. Those are the most obvious areas I would say need attention to set up a breeding programme, but, there are others.

Beefriendly · Oct 6, 2017

Swarm said:
And who knows what could be on the cards with a focused breeding plan?

Just a thought, but why reinvent the wheel?
The breeding programs to produce bees with the desired qualities that many beekeepers want to keep has already been done with several other strains and hybrids.
What is it that Irish/Colonsay/elsewhere Amm's have got that we should re-start selective breeding all over again with that particular bee? In todays cosmopolitan society does it matter if your bee is Old Irish or new age Italian?
I'll apologies in advance, as you will obviously think this is another post "having a go at Amm".
It's not.
It's a question relating to why so many think a bee that was described by Ruttner as "modest" should now become the chosen bee. Your own comment suggest's it is not perfect.
As I keep some Irish Amm's myself I think I can safely say I do have some idea of the nature of the bee and the question I'm asking.

To be honest all I'm expecting is abuse for asking a question about Amm's...doubt I'll get a serious answer. And therein lies a problem that has been touched upon be a few.

Poly Hive · Oct 6, 2017

I quite agree.

Amm is very far from perfect. Susceptible to chalkbrood and to Nosema.

If serious work had started say 30 years ago something might have been possible in my thoughts. I fear the horse is away now though.

I used to find it or what seemed to be in in various regions in Scotland. I can name some. By Dundee, in Kincardinshire, Aberdeenshire, Banffshire, Moray, and Invernessshire. Now? I hae ma doots.

PH

Beefriendly · Oct 6, 2017

Poly Hive said:
If serious work had started say 30 years ago something might have been possible in my thoughts. I fear the horse is away now though.

There are Islands in the Danish Archipelago set aside as conservation and breeding areas for Amm and have been for many years, close on 20+ I think. Læsø has the last remaining native Danish population of Amm and is protected by law. I think there are at least 2 others used for isolated mating's. These breeding programs have been ongoing for many years but I don't have any information on their progress. If anyone has any updates on their breeding progression be great if you could post it, also from our own Amm reserves on Colonsay and Oronsay.

Quis Custodiet · Oct 6, 2017

Brian Bush said:
Let us move this thread back to the original intention, please. I am appalled by the venom and rubbish posted on here.
AMM exist as a recognized subspecies of AM...............................................

An excellent post with many pertinent observations. If I may, there is one point I would like to clarify; nobody is objecting to AMM bees, what is being objected to is AMM bees being described as native to specific parts of these islands when the said bees have originated elsewhere, often in countries of western Europe.

Beefriendly · Oct 6, 2017

Quis Custodiet said:
what is being objected to is AMM bees being described as native to specific parts of these islands when the said bees have originated elsewhere, often in countries of western Europe.

Not sure I follow you here QC...the little I know about the introduction of bees after IofW disease and between the wars was that some Amm's were imported from France (many went to Scotland), but the majority of imports to repopulate the bee population were Carniolan, Italian and Russian. This is supposed to have happened in both England Scotland Wales and Ireland. I've never been able to find any reliable numbers quoted. But if the 95% purity quoted in the newspaper article for the Irish Amm's is correct then that 5% introgression has to have come from somewhere else.
So I'm not sure where you get your idea that the Irish Amm's of today originated elsewhere...they would show genetic markers relating to Amm's from other western European countries, similar to the Cornish Amms being closer to French Amms (DOWN mr Hoppit)..than the reference for Britsh Amm's from Colonsay etc. It doesn't mean they are from France, just have different regional brogue as in broad Cornish vs Scottish accents..still bees though.

For those interested in AMM

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