For those interested in AMM

[Quis Custodiet]

........... Læsø has the last remaining native Danish population of Amm and is protected by law. If anyone has any updates on their breeding progression be great if you could post it, also from our own Amm reserves on Colonsay and Oronsay.

That Danish island has been granted legal protection as a reserve for the past eight or nine years to the best of my recollection. I met some AMM enthusiasts, who visited the island at that time, who were not very confident of success. It appears there was a great deal of introgression by other sub species, what the situation is now I know not, but I wish them well. There is somebody in Brittany who breeds AMM either on an island or in a remote area, he apparently is quite successful in his endeavours. I have met Andrew Abrahams, he has invested heavily, both time and labour in creating his reserves and deserves success. He, as far as I know refers to AMM rather than native AMM which is fine. There is an area in North West Ireland, where until recently I assumed near native Irish AMM might still be extant. But a few weeks ago I got the opportunity to investigate further and found that could not be the case, unfortunate as they are quite nice bees and fairly docile. There is much else one could say, but I prefer not to attract the lunatic fringe who only want to drag every objective post on AMM into the gutter.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Just a thought, but why reinvent the wheel?
The breeding programs to produce bees with the desired qualities that many beekeepers want to keep has already been done with several other strains and hybrids.
What is it that Irish/Colonsay/elsewhere Amm's have got that we should re-start selective breeding all over again with that particular bee? In todays cosmopolitan society does it matter if your bee is Old Irish or new age Italian?
I'll apologies in advance, as you will obviously think this is another post "having a go at Amm".
It's not.
It's a question relating to why so many think a bee that was described by Ruttner as "modest" should now become the chosen bee. Your own comment suggest's it is not perfect.
As I keep some Irish Amm's myself I think I can safely say I do have some idea of the nature of the bee and the question I'm asking.

To be honest all I'm expecting is abuse for asking a question about Amm's...doubt I'll get a serious answer. And therein lies a problem that has been touched upon be a few.

It is always good to have as wide a genetic base as possible. Most problems with diseases in farming are attributable to the loss of genetic diversity in crops. Nobody ever saw this happening 100-200 years ago when serious breeding first started and right through the "green revolution".

 

[kevrhcfag]

Only one here I can see doing the stirring



I thought the whole raison d'etre of the BBKA was to be a target of ridicule?

Credit where its due, they do a fine good job of it aswell.

 

[Into the lions den]

not the abuse of individuals that ITLD wrongly assumed. .

That's not what I assumed at all. I meant the regular bunfight that breaks out over bee types. The slanging/exaggeration/denial comes from both sides. The wise read and consider...'is there anything in this that can be of help to me?'. Normally there is not but sometimes you run across little nuggets. Nuggets that you can't see through red mist.

 

[Finman]

.
You do not need to nurse some bee type long, when you see what they are.

This discussion is out of all limits. I have had black bees, Caucasians, Elgons, Carniolans, Buckfast, many types of Italians, mostly mongrels, F1 hybrids.

Bee strains 30 years ago and today are from another world, even if the race is same.

IT does not sound good when bee stock is from Ice Ace or from last decade, or native. Every village wants that genepool is from my two backyard hives.

Bee breeding has gone forward all the time. I compare every year some different queen breeder's achievements.

My first demand is that the Queen lays 2 full langstroth boxes. That drops most of the bee strains off. Swarming habits are very important too.

.when I have 20-30 hives, I have noticed that it is vain to breed own stock. Isolated breeding stations? I doubt them. Huge Job for nothing. Even 1000 hive owners do not use isolated stations. Who pays extra costs?

 

[Brian Bush]

.
You do not need to nurse some bee type long, when you see what they are.

This discussion is out of all limits. I have had black bees, Caucasians, Elgons, Carniolans, Buckfast, many types of Italians, mostly mongrels, F1 hybrids.

Bee strains 30 years ago and today are from another world, even if the race is same.

IT does not sound good when bee stock is from Ice Ace or from last decade, or native. Every village wants that genepool is from my two backyard hives.

Bee breeding has gone forward all the time. I compare every year some different queen breeder's achievements.

My first demand is that the Queen lays 2 full langstroth boxes. That drops most of the bee strains off. Swarming habits are very important too.

.

Well done Finman! You have encapsulated in a few words many of my thoughts!

 

[Quis Custodiet]

............. The slanging/exaggeration/denial comes from both sides. ....................

Denial certainly comes from both sides. But there are many here who express themselves without "slanging" or exaggeration.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

It is always good to have as wide a genetic base as possible. Most problems with diseases in farming are attributable to the loss of genetic diversity . Nobody ever saw this happening 100-200 years ago

I don't know - look at the Royal family and their hangers on..............

sometimes you run across little nuggets. .

Few of those on here as well

 

[Swarm]

Just a thought, but why reinvent the wheel?
The breeding programs to produce bees with the desired qualities that many beekeepers want to keep has already been done with several other strains and hybrids.
What is it that Irish/Colonsay/elsewhere Amm's have got that we should re-start selective breeding all over again with that particular bee? In todays cosmopolitan society does it matter if your bee is Old Irish or new age Italian?
I'll apologies in advance, as you will obviously think this is another post "having a go at Amm".
It's not.
It's a question relating to why so many think a bee that was described by Ruttner as "modest" should now become the chosen bee. Your own comment suggest's it is not perfect.
As I keep some Irish Amm's myself I think I can safely say I do have some idea of the nature of the bee and the question I'm asking.

To be honest all I'm expecting is abuse for asking a question about Amm's...doubt I'll get a serious answer. And therein lies a problem that has been touched upon be a few.

Do you think those additions were conducive to reasoned discussion? Waving a red rag only serves to enflame.
I'll ask you a question, are you or would you be happy to see yet another (sub)species consigned to history thanks to homo beekeeper sapiens? The Ruttner quote is also getting a little worn now.

Fair play and acceptance is all I'm asking instead of constant denial or derission

 

[Beefriendly]

Perhaps an attempt at answering the questions asked rather than pouring more petrol on the fire?
If you look at my first post I state I'm delighted they have confirmed the presence off Amm.
As someone who also keeps Amms I think you know I don't want any subspecies confinef to history.

 

[Brian Bush]

I don't believe that any reasonable beekeeper wishes to see a sub-species consigned to history. Those who have a passion for any sub-species should be applauded for their efforts. I just have this nagging feeling that AMM enthusiasts need to do more. Hopefully when we see the DNA research for Ireland a proper sub-species development plan may emerge. There are areas of Germany, Denmark and probably France where pure strains of AMM still exist. Bibba and the AMM enthusiasts might consider taking the lead on a properly organised international AMM improvement scheme.

 

[For want of a better word]

I don't believe that any reasonable beekeeper wishes to see a sub-species consigned to history. Those who have a passion for any sub-species should be applauded for their efforts. I just have this nagging feeling that AMM enthusiasts need to do more. Hopefully when we see the DNA research for Ireland a proper sub-species development plan may emerge. There are areas of Germany, Denmark and probably France where pure strains of AMM still exist. Bibba and the AMM enthusiasts might consider taking the lead on a properly organised international AMM improvement scheme.

For our own Cornish sub species we are well under way on a programme of saving and improving on what we have.

Would be easy to "import" Amm species from elsewhere, but in the interest of conservation on something that could be very special to Cornwall we are not going to do that!!

Yeghes da

 

[Swarm]

Perhaps an attempt at answering the questions asked rather than pouring more petrol on the fire?
If you look at my first post I state I'm delighted they have confirmed the presence off Amm.
As someone who also keeps Amms I think you know I don't want any subspecies confinef to history.

I've answered that question before Beefriendly, it's no more than they deserve but try asking it like a grown up. Was the sarcasm that I highlighted necessary? And then you accuse me of adding fuel.
I notice you didn't answer my question.

 

[SDM]

For our own Cornish sub species we are well under way on a programme of saving and improving on what we have.

Would be easy to "import" Amm species from elsewhere, but in the interest of conservation on something that could be very special to Cornwall we are not going to do that!!

Yeghes da

So really you want a to conserve a Cornish bee. Not Amm generally. ?
What do you think will be the benefit of this ?
I know that UK specific markers have been identified but I assume I'm right in thinking no be exists that doesn't carry non UK markers. If that's the case you are denying the opportunity to improve your bees with non Cornish stock to preserve something that doesn't exist.
I'm not picking holes here, I'm just lost as to what your motivation and objective is.

 

[Beefriendly]

I notice you didn't answer my question.

I did answer your question Steve, although that should have been a "d" not an "f" on the end of confinef(D) damn mobile phone keyboards.
I'm puzzled why you thought I didn't?

I'll ask you a question, are you or would you be happy to see yet another (sub)species consigned to history thanks to homo beekeeper sapiens?

As someone who also keeps Amms I think you know I don't want any subspecies confinef to history.

 

[Swarm]

Do you think those additions were conducive to reasoned discussion?

I meant this one.
But let's leave it there, I'm fed up with arguments and negativity and doom and gloom. I think this news is something to be pleased about, so do you. I don't understand why you even asked the question. I don't want Amm to end up like some animal in a zoo that is now extinct in the wild. It does exist but only on two remote islands off the coast, etc ... It is our indigenous bee and as such we should preserve it.

 

[For want of a better word]

So really you want a to conserve a Cornish bee. Not Amm generally. ?
What do you think will be the benefit of this ?
I know that UK specific markers have been identified but I assume I'm right in thinking no be exists that doesn't carry non UK markers. If that's the case you are denying the opportunity to improve your bees with non Cornish stock to preserve something that doesn't exist.
I'm not picking holes here, I'm just lost as to what your motivation and objective is.

Our DNA work has identified a conserved number of markers in our Amm that are specific to bees located in the Rame peninsular, and another two groups... one in the Godolphin area and one in the St Agnes ( mainland) area.

I am using these bees to improve my own stocks and not bringing in any Colonsay/Manx/Eire or European Amm

I do not know if it is my selection criteria or perhaps even "hybrid vigour" has produced a generation of gentle black bees.... which have given me a good crop of honey this last season( Compared to Aml in another valley)

All small scale and local..... I do not think the Buckie importers need worry!

Yeghes da

 

[Beefriendly]

I meant this one.
I chose to ignore that inflammatory question
Now can we get back to some reasoned debate?

 

[madasafish]

As a hobby beekeeper I don't care what sub species of bee I have . I just want good temper, little swarming, disease tolerance and some honey..

If sub species meet those requirements they will attract more followers.

 

[mbc]

For our own Cornish sub species we are well under way on a programme of saving and improving on what we have.

Would be easy to "import" Amm species from elsewhere, but in the interest of conservation on something that could be very special to Cornwall we are not going to do that!!

Yeghes da

Spot on, I've been tempted to get Irish, Norwegian, Scottish or French breeding stock but have always fallen back to what I've always done, look after my own bees from here to the best of my ability and after twenty odd years I'm still enjoying my beekeeping and my bees and I'm glad I've resisted each temptation.
On another note, what is this forum like ?!!
I've been off net for a couple of days and the thread has evolved quite ugly unfortunately, it's about an amm success story and some people just don't seem to be able to stomach that without throwing their toys out of the pram.