What exactly is the law about stolen bees?

[B+.]

This only applies IF one accepts that bees in a hive are "wild animals".

Unless there is a queen excluder across the entrance, I don't think the queen is being held captive. She is "choosing" to stay. Does that imply a level of domestication?

I wonder if, by applying a numbered plastic identification disk to her thorax, it is like a name tag on a pet. I would certainly have thought this was enough to suggest ownership.

 

[itma]

Like I said, best avoid the "wild animal in captivity argument" - it shouldn't be necessary.

'Tagging' could provide identification and might help with the return of stolen property after it has been recovered (and only IF it ever was).
It shouldn't be needed to prove that "property" (bees) were taken without consent and with the intent to permanently deprive the owner (the offence of Theft).

Note that this aspect of the thread derives from the Police "no crime-ing" the taking of bees because they wrongly stated that "the insects aren't property but the frames would have been".


Excellent advice btw from Thorn regarding number plates ...

 

[thorn]

Like I said, best avoid the "wild animal in captivity argument" - it shouldn't be necessary.
QUOTE]

Which brings us back to Kearry v Pattinson, discussed in several previous threads.
Lord Slesser - "There is no doubt that in this case that these bees had been hived by the plaintiff. Therefore before they swarmed they were his property..." "When hived they are taken into the disposition of the owner and become his property."
Lord Goddard - "In my view, he (Blackstone) is saying no more than that the law with regard to bees is the same as it is with regard to any other wild creature which is reduced into possession...."
What a great case. All the way to The Court of Appeal over a swarm. I trust that both sets of solicitors recovered all their costs. None of this "no-win, no-fee" nonsense in those days.

Anyway, I tame all my bees. Doesn't everybody?

 

[seaknight]

After reading this thread quickly, I wouldn't trust Wikipedia since it's an open source website that anyone can edit.

Has anyone sought legal advice from friends who are solicitors or barristers, instead of being a barrack room lawyer?

I'm not sure what the best way forward is, plastering CCTV cameras everywhere isn't practical, there are also privacy problems, accurate signage is a requirement if they film a public place, etc.
As the old saying goes, locks only keep honest people out, if someone's determined to steal, then they will. Branding or marking equipment is a deterrent, but the stolen bees could be transferred to other hives.

Perhaps we should put some Africanised bees where they're likely to get stolen?!

 

[the sneak]

Thanks

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Has anyone sought legal advice from friends who are solicitors or barristers, instead of being a barrack room lawyer?

Try this person - I don't believe he's practiced his profession in the armed forces (although he may have clients there)

Like I said, best avoid the "wild animal in captivity argument" - it shouldn't be necessary.
QUOTE]

Which brings us back to Kearry v Pattinson, discussed in several previous threads.
Lord Slesser - "There is no doubt that in this case that these bees had been hived by the plaintiff. Therefore before they swarmed they were his property..." "When hived they are taken into the disposition of the owner and become his property."
Lord Goddard - "In my view, he (Blackstone) is saying no more than that the law with regard to bees is the same as it is with regard to any other wild creature which is reduced into possession...."
What a great case. All the way to The Court of Appeal over a swarm. I trust that both sets of solicitors recovered all their costs. None of this "no-win, no-fee" nonsense in those days.

Anyway, I tame all my bees. Doesn't everybody?

 

[thorn]

Try this person - I don't believe he's practiced his profession in the armed forces (although he may have clients there)


Thanks JBM. I've acted for the odd squaddie over the years.

And today I retire (it should have been last week but I agreed to come in for a few days to help my successor learn where the tea and coffee is kept).

 

[thorn]

Has anyone sought legal advice from friends who are solicitors or barristers?

?!

You mean, someone like me?

 

[itma]

...
And today I retire ...

So, are you going to take up beekeeping?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Has anyone sought legal advice from friends who are solicitors or barristers, instead of being a barrack room lawyer?

Ha....I have two of those and they are no help at all.
I had a minor prang in the car in January. Slid oh so slowly into the back of a car in the snow. Big 4x4.....built like a tank.....no damage. My bumper was ruined to the tune of 2K ( 2K for a bumper!!!!!!!!)
2 months later I got a letter from some ambulance chasers in Liverpool to inform me that their client was suing me (read insurance co.) for negligence in not controlling my vehicle despite the fact that it was sunny and the road conditions were dry. As a result of the 5mph impact they had been off work since with whiplash. They did admit that it was a self diagnosis and they hadn't sought medical opinion.
My friend told me the insurance company would settle.
Full of indignance I phoned said insurance company to tell them that the claim form was full of exaggeration, inaccuracy and blatant lies.
They said it happens all the time....she was looking only for 10K in the small claims court and they would probably settle.
I couldn't believe it. I am a convicted negligent driver.....oh the shame.

 

[B+.]

I am a convicted negligent driver.....oh the shame.

Just wait until you renew your policy

 

[Erichalfbee]

What can I expect then?

 

[thorn]

So, are you going to take up beekeeping?

No, it's too contentious.

 

[thorn]

Ha....I have two of those and they are no help at all.
I had a minor prang in the car in January. Slid oh so slowly into the back of a car in the snow. Big 4x4.....built like a tank.....no damage. My bumper was ruined to the tune of 2K ( 2K for a bumper!!!!!!!!)
2 months later I got a letter from some ambulance chasers in Liverpool to inform me that their client was suing me (read insurance co.) for negligence in not controlling my vehicle despite the fact that it was sunny and the road conditions were dry. As a result of the 5mph impact they had been off work since with whiplash. They did admit that it was a self diagnosis and they hadn't sought medical opinion.
My friend told me the insurance company would settle.
Full of indignance I phoned said insurance company to tell them that the claim form was full of exaggeration, inaccuracy and blatant lies.
They said it happens all the time....she was looking only for 10K in the small claims court and they would probably settle.
I couldn't believe it. I am a convicted negligent driver.....oh the shame.

Not convicted, it's a civil matter. But it'll be reflected in your next premium.

The other party will have had to produce medical evidence to substantiate the claim. It's up to your insurers to challenge it. Insurers are the major problem in the claims game. If they settled promptly, and for a proper amount in clear cut cases, and stood firm where there is doubt, then the system would be a lot better. They used to, when they employed properly trained and experienced staff.
And as to the Claimant's lawyer, if someone comes to him with what sounds like a genuine claim, he'll accept what he hears. He doesn't assume that everyone is a liar. He doesn't know what the other side will have to say till the insurers respond to him. If the story sounds a bit funny, he'll make further enquiries. No lawyer wants to waste his time and efforts on a losing case if it's no win, no fee.

 

[td4bees]

Well this has been a very illuminating series of answers to the original question. Thank you.

SORRY. I did not think so, all I learned was how some bleeks get mad when they caught driving as if they were already (MAD) and how every one loves to hate the cops. load of dribble go back to beekeeping, tell the bees about it. ps.If you can not do the crim. for stealing the bees, can you do him for the loss of this years honey crop, oh dear you don't declare your sales well then your a crim. as well.

 

[pargyle]

Oh my ... where did that come from ? Couldn't sleep ????

 

[Dishmop]

If you tracked down some of your stolen equipment and told the police where it was , they might go and have a look and ask, but all the person has to say is that they bought it at a car boot sale..........end of story really...

 

[wessexmario]

If you tracked down some of your stolen equipment and told the police where it was , they might go and have a look and ask, but all the person has to say is that they bought it at a car boot sale..........end of story really...

No, because if your property is stolen and a thief sells it, under UK law it still remains your property. The buyer has no rights to it. If you can prove it's yours, you can take it back.
It's then up to the buyer to reclaim the purchase money from the thieving seller. The buyer could also be charged with "handling stolen property", but that would tend to only happen if it can be proved they knew or had good cause to suspect that it was stolen.

 

[Dishmop]

and how do you prove its yours? and that it was stolen from you

 

[wessexmario]

plenty of ways...
some identifying mark you placed on/inside it (in plain sight or hidden),
photos of the kit where it was in your original apiary (things like wood grain or paint chips will be unique)
evidence of the trail that led you to finding the kit (eg: photo on ebay)
the timeline of events (it had to have been sold after when it was stolen, and the seller/buyer can't show evidence of having purchased it legally)

I agree, none of it is easy to do after the event, a lot of luck is involved in recovering stolen kit, but often police arresting someone for another crime will find a lot of other stolen property together, they can find identifying marks reported when it was stolen, which helps them build a case for multiple crimes / repeat offenders.