Thermodynamics question

[madasafish]

A report from the Energy Savings Trust suggests that 80% of heat pumps are underperforming in the UK because they have been poorly installed.

Is anyone surprised?
I mean, the Government appears to make a fetish of announcing things and then leaving it to others to install them and screw it up.

See also EV chargers: a classic UK case of ruining a good idea with no implementation plans. And of course the classic case of towerblock insulation.

 

[robmort]

A report from the Energy Savings Trust suggests that 80% of heat pumps are underperforming in the UK because they have been poorly installed.

The same is probably true for gas boilers, at least because they are not operated in a fully condensing mode.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I think you are right, when I was in the business we lost plenty of work to installers who seemed to install a basic system which was not capable of coping with the heat demands of an inefficient house.
We used to follow up our customers as most were local and apart from a few tweeks we had to carry out, all were satisfied.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

A report from the Energy Savings Trust suggests that 80% of heat pumps are underperforming in the UK because they have been poorly installed.

That I can believe. To get the grant I had to use an "approved" "expert" installer. In my case a company from Sheffield. If anyone is tempted to have a system installed all I can say is look the installation company up on trustpilot.

 

[blackcloud]

And insulation is paramount.
I finally managed to get some work done with the Green Homes grant -it was an utter fiasco from start to finish.
They even asked me for an interview for the schemes postmortem-that was a disaster too.

 

[user 6228]

That I can believe. To get the grant I had to use an "approved" "experter. In my case a company from Sheffield. If anyone is tempted to have a system installed all I can say is look the installation company up on trustpilot." install

I dont have that installer option as i have a solar hot water system, that does not use a coil in tank but rather flat plate heat exchangers. So I will have to use the original installer who doesnt have MCS i.e. me

 

[Gilberdyke John]

And insulation is paramount.
I finally managed to get some work done with the Green Homes grant -it was an utter fiasco from start to finish.
They even asked me for an interview for the schemes postmortem-that was a disaster too.

I dont have that installer option as i have a solar hot water system, that does not use a coil in tank but rather flat plate heat exchangers. So I will have to use the original installer who doesnt have MCS i.e. me

Not a flat plate version but I too have a self installed domestic hot water system. In my case an evacuated tube heat collector on the south gable, in conjunction with a twin coil cylinder with the bottom coil used with the collector and a circulating pump with electronic controller. The second (upper) coil is heated by the heat pump. During summer months almost all our domestic hot water is virtually free. I installed this several years ago when I was somewhat fitter and more mobile. Grant assistance packages were available but required "approved" installers with what I knew were ludicrous labour charges. I've written in the past about the screw up an approved company made of a solar collector system on a neighbours house which I studied and identified failings to avoid.

 

[roche]

Not a flat plate version but I too have a self installed domestic hot water system. In my case an evacuated tube heat collector on the south gable, in conjunction with a twin coil cylinder with the bottom coil used with the collector and a circulating pump with electronic controller. The second (upper) coil is heated by the heat pump. During summer months almost all our domestic hot water is virtually free. I installed this several years ago when I was somewhat fitter and more mobile. Grant assistance packages were available but required "approved" installers with what I knew were ludicrous labour charges. I've written in the past about the screw up an approved company made of a solar collector system on a neighbours house which I studied and identified failings to avoid.

The other thing that totally screws up the grant system is type approval of the equipment to be installed. I used an "approved" installer once. They did not understand the physics, and cost a fortune. The next house I self installed for for a sixth of the cost, with no grant.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I just had the electrician that installed my ASHP (my nephew) around to check out my inline boiler that doesn't seem to be working correctly. Over a post op coffee he was telling me about a system he had be called out to look at that had been installed by another contractor. An oil boiler had been removed and an ASHP had been installed straight onto the existing pipe work and radiators! The property was a solid stone wall place with minimal insulation. No wonder the owner was unimpressed with the technology!

 

[Amari]

We live in a mid-1400s thatched timber framed cottage. 8-10 years ago we were approached by a very pushy salesman who tried to persuade us to change from our oil-fired boiler to an ASHP. Reading most of the comments above I'm glad we didn't go ahead.
I do have a worry: is it correct that after 2025 we won't be allowed to replace the oil boiler if it fails?

 

[Beesnaturally]

The point seems to be being missed. We are committed to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. That means no more fossil-fuelled building/water heating; and the sooner the better.

The transition to renewables isn't always going to be easy and it will be hard on some. A sensible government would have a better plan.

The loss of gas, oil and coal as in-house energy sources means **something** has to replace them. In new builds that's easy; in most existing stock it isn't hard. But its going to require a whole new industry to ensure its done well The major way forward is modern board insulation and better doors and windows. Basically: arrange to use less. There are lots of things you can do you make yourself more comfortable in slightly lower room temperatures.

It may be that many present installations are inadequate in cold weather. But for 8 or 9 months of the year they are saving us from emitting (as much) CO2; and as renewables take over more of the generation load that will increase. The answer is to a) save for better heat-loss arrangements; b) use an electric heater as a supplement when you need to; c) get used to some cooler rooms; d) invest in some home-renewable energy kit.

We are transitioning from an age of cheap energy that can be thrown about like there's no tomorrow; to one where we will treasure it and eke out our resources; and/or invest in our own renewable generation. Best get used to that and start planning ahead.

 

[Anduril]

The point seems to be being missed. We are committed to reducing our greenhouse gas emissions to net zero by 2050. That means no more fossil-fuelled building/water heating; and the sooner the better.

The transition to renewables isn't always going to be easy and it will be hard on some. A sensible government would have a better plan.

The loss of gas, oil and coal as in-house energy sources means **something** has to replace them. In new builds that's easy; in most existing stock it isn't hard. But its going to require a whole new industry to ensure its done well The major way forward is modern board insulation and better doors and windows. Basically: arrange to use less. There are lots of things you can do you make yourself more comfortable in slightly lower room temperatures.

It may be that many present installations are inadequate in cold weather. But for 8 or 9 months of the year they are saving us from emitting (as much) CO2; and as renewables take over more of the generation load that will increase. The answer is to a) save for better heat-loss arrangements; b) use an electric heater as a supplement when you need to; c) get used to some cooler rooms; d) invest in some home-renewable energy kit.

We are transitioning from an age of cheap energy that can be thrown about like there's no tomorrow; to one where we will treasure it and eke out our resources; and/or invest in our own renewable generation. Best get used to that and start planning ahead.

In Europe I have seen quotes of between 56,000-100,000 euros spent on each house to achieve that goal. Whether that is government subsidy or out of the pocket of the homeowner it is not sustainable.
While we are told to reduce our emissions in the UK, there are only 30,000 grants per year for heat pump installations, but low income households will have the full costs met. In essence the goal for the UK will not be met in time and by 2035 the UK will fork out 8 billion pounds in fines for not achieving the emission reductions. Another cost of living crisis in the making!

 

[roche]

In Europe I have seen quotes of between 56,000-100,000 euros spent on each house to achieve that goal. Whether that is government subsidy or out of the pocket of the homeowner it is not sustainable.
While we are told to reduce our emissions in the UK, there are only 30,000 grants per year for heat pump installations, but low income households will have the full costs met. In essence the goal for the UK will not be met in time and by 2035 the UK will fork out 8 billion pounds in fines for not achieving the emission reductions. Another cost of living crisis in the making!

The UK has been under investing for decades in energy efficiency - in particular insulation. The first rule in renewables - use less, and that makes sense what ever the energy source is. That does not mean be cold, it means insulating so that less is wasted. But successive parliaments have bridled at mandating truly progressive building regulations, largely due to vested interests, both of MPs and the building industry. Similar comments can be made about home appliances of all sorts.
Yes, there is a high up front cost, but over the life of the building, the cost savings and emission savings can be there - so long as they are not artificially inflated by grant schemes or industry bodies.

 

[Anduril]

The UK has been under investing for decades in energy efficiency - in particular insulation. The first rule in renewables - use less, and that makes sense what ever the energy source is. That does not mean be cold, it means insulating so that less is wasted. But successive parliaments have bridled at mandating truly progressive building regulations, largely due to vested interests, both of MPs and the building industry. Similar comments can be made about home appliances of all sorts.
Yes, there is a high up front cost, but over the life of the building, the cost savings and emission savings can be there - so long as they are not artificially inflated by grant schemes or industry bodies.

I can see new scams looming and also poor installations of exterior wall insulation.
My father a number of years ago took advantage of the cavity wall insulation, but the approved ***** who did it, left one section of the wall because it had exterior wall tiles. These were a design/cosmetic feature of 1970's housing, my father was informed that it was a single wall and not double. Totally untrue because I saw the house being built. So the stubbornness of my late father and the insistence of an ***** it was never completed properly.

 

[Beesnaturally]

In Europe I have seen quotes of between 56,000-100,000 euros spent on each house to achieve that goal. Whether that is government subsidy or out of the pocket of the homeowner it is not sustainable.
While we are told to reduce our emissions in the UK, there are only 30,000 grants per year for heat pump installations, but low income households will have the full costs met. In essence the goal for the UK will not be met in time and by 2035 the UK will fork out 8 billion pounds in fines for not achieving the emission reductions. Another cost of living crisis in the making!

As I say: a sensible government would have a better plan...

Those costs seem excessive to me. But as I say, we need a whole new industry; an army of architects, specialist builders, domestic electricians (which doesn't require a full electrical apprenticeship - its all pretty simple under a trained and watchful eye)

The problem is we live under a government that thinks the market will solve every problem. Its forgotten: it is the market-maker.

 

[user 20297]

As I say: a sensible government would have a better plan...

Those costs seem excessive to me. But as I say, we need a whole new industry; an army of architects, specialist builders, domestic electricians (which doesn't require a full electrical apprenticeship - its all pretty simple under a trained and watchful eye)

The problem is we live under a government that thinks the market will solve every problem. Its forgotten: it is the market-maker.

I am now a qualified rdSAP assessor (EPC). Here in Scotland, when a domestic dwelling is classed "rural" one of the automatic recommendations for improvement is the installation of a wind-powered generator. The cost of installation is quoted as between £15,000 and £25,000 and the annual savings to the customer estimated at around £700. Wall insulation is between £4,000 and £14,000 with savings of £90pa.

That sort of investment is not viable for the average householder and the returns make it hard to justify in any case.

I don't know if any politicians or policy-makers have actually sat down and computed the costs to the country of making homes warmer and reducing their energy input and CO2 output, but if they have done I think they are fooling themselves that it can be achieved in any meaningful way any time soon.

 

[Anduril]

As I say: a sensible government would have a better plan...

Those costs seem excessive to me. But as I say, we need a whole new industry; an army of architects, specialist builders, domestic electricians (which doesn't require a full electrical apprenticeship - its all pretty simple under a trained and watchful eye)

The problem is we live under a government that thinks the market will solve every problem. Its forgotten: it is the market-maker.

This one states EUR 53,000
https://energypost.eu/eu-heat-pumps-warnings-against-one-size-fits-all-policies/

 

[user 20297]

This one states EUR 53,000
https://energypost.eu/eu-heat-pumps-warnings-against-one-size-fits-all-policies/

We don't have a sensible Government. Where it has provided subsidies and financial assistance to activities that will help to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and (theoretically) reduce the output of CO2, the benefits have been mainly scooped up by wealthy people with ready cash available. In order to access grants and subsidies it's usually necessary to have a fair chunk of spare cash already. In recent decades and in many cases, this is surplus, personal money that would otherwise be getting a poor rate of return in investments. I have encountered situations where huge properties that were previously uneconomical to keep warm are now being excessively heated by biomass boilers because the owner of the equipment gets a return in the RHI that is proportionate to the kilowatts of heat generated...ie. the more that gets burned the more they get paid!

There are loads of misuses and abuses in the field of energy conservation, and it's mainly making rich people richer at the expense of the average person. In the name of reducing the national output of carbon dioxide we all pay levies on our fuel bills to subsidise the schemes and technologies that most of us neither have access to nor can benefit from.

 

[Newbeeneil]

We don't have a sensible Government. Where it has provided subsidies and financial assistance to activities that will help to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels and (theoretically) reduce the output of CO2, the benefits have been mainly scooped up by wealthy people with ready cash available. In order to access grants and subsidies it's usually necessary to have a fair chunk of spare cash already. In recent decades and in many cases, this is surplus, p[ersonal money that would otherwise be getting a poor rate of return in investments. I have encountered situations where huge properties that were previously uneconomical to keep warm are now being excessively heated by biomass boilers because the owner of the equipment gets a return in the RHI that is proportionate to the kilowatts of heat generated...ie. the more that gets burned the more they get paid!

There are loads of misuses and abuses in the field of energy conservation, and it's mainly making rich people richer at the expense of the average person. In the name of reducing the national output of carbon dioxide we all pay levies on our fuel bills to subsidise the schemes and technologies that most of us neither have access to nor can benefit from.

Rich people getting richer? Now there’s a surprise!

 

[Beesnaturally]

This one states EUR 53,000
https://energypost.eu/eu-heat-pumps-warnings-against-one-size-fits-all-policies/

Good study, thanks.