The truth behind fondants

[Boston Bees]

I've been waiting all day to ask this without ruining the flow, but it's getting late. Elsewhere (thread closed now) I read: That is not baker's fondant, but fondant icing - a totally different product. (JBM).

Yesterday I took delivery of a pallet of 12.5kg blocks of fondant from my usual supplier - except that it turned out not to be blocks - but tubs of fondant icing. See picture. The price is much the same (£10.25).

I plan to use this rather than go through the hassle of arranging a return, but I'll have to dollop the stuff into plastic containers. Does anyone have experience of using fondant icing, or have any comments?

Personally, I'd arrange a return. It's not what you ordered.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

It hasn’t got HMF in the ingredients though

I haven't interrupted the flow after all!

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Personally, I'd arrange a return. It's not what you ordered.

Thanks. You're right.

 

[Wilco]

Legislation for animal feed businesses
A feed business is legally defined as "any undertaking, whether for profit or not and whether public or private, carrying out any operation of production, manufacture, processing, storage, transport or distribution of feed, including any producer producing, processing or storing feed for feeding to animals on his own holding".
UK laws on the composition and marketing of animal feed are derived from EU measures.
Animal feed regulations cover:

• the additives (vitamins, colourants, flavourings, binders etc) authorised for use in animal feed
• the maximum levels of various contaminants - eg arsenic, lead, dioxins and certain pesticides
• certain ingredients that must not be used in feed
• the nutritional claims that can be made for certain feeds
• the names and descriptions which must be applied to various feed materials - that is, ingredients fed singly
• the information to be provided on feed labels

I'm not sure that bees are included in that. Still reading through all the different bits of legislation linked to it though.

Edit: got there in the end... I stand corrected. Very interesting. Thank you.

 

[Patrick1]

Patrick.
Beekeepers have been feeding Bakers Fondant, home made fondant, home made syrup and shop bought sugar well before your company and others were ever set up.
As for the suggestion there is a connection with winter losses perhaps we might look at the average BBKA ones whose members feed industrial quantities of Candipolline?

Please don’t make this about my company, I am firstly a beekeeper, the evidence is that bakers fondant could be resulting in over wintered losses, that’s it, lets try and discuss that and please don’t keep bring my company into it, I agree in regard to the BBKA and the way they do this prescriptive approach, it clearly doesn’t work

 

[Patrick1]

Even if you sometimes say wise things people in this forum are bound to crack jokes, make fun of you and say things which do not make any constructive point to the discussion especially so with speculative overstatement that is made with a view to catching the attention.

Respect isn't especially difficult to earn, but it must be earned – its not automatic.

OK so lets move along that route, “speculative overstatement that is made with a view to catching the attention”

Explain what you mean please, don’t go near my company and my position because that is not what it is about, we are trying to discuss bakers fondant and its place in beekeeping and it impact on over wintered losses.

 

[Patrick1]

Patrick.
Beekeepers have been feeding Bakers Fondant, home made fondant, home made syrup and shop bought sugar well before your company and others were ever set up.
As for the suggestion there is a connection with winter losses perhaps we might look at the average BBKA ones whose members feed industrial quantities of Candipolline?

Again, you are trying to make this about my company to undermine the argument, we are trying to discuss bakers fondant and its place in beekeeping and it impact on over wintered losses. Leave my company out of it. You must have another worthy retort

 

[Patrick1]

SOH Failure Patrick ?

I haven't fed sugar or fondant to my bees for some years ... mostly, they overwinter on their own stores - if I need to top them up I use Invertbee (presumably as the name is InvertBEE it will not be noticed by the Food Police ?). When I have fed sugar I have to say that I didn't notice any increased mortality above normal winter reductions but I don't really feel sufficiently qualified as a scientist or even as a beekeeper to comment on the words of such an authority as the MANUFACTURER of a product.

I ran (and latterly owned) a company for 30 years that turned over many millions of pounds respraying mineral fibre suspended acoustic ceilings that you find in offices and retail stores. In the days when people smoked in offices and shops the ceiling tiles used to turn brown fairly quickly and the aesthetics suffered. We had a very good business re-spraying the ceilings, in situ, following substantial masking and protection of the premises ... we used a product we had manufactured for us called Acoustic Dye ... my sales line was that it restored the original surface of the tile, was Class 0 fire rated so did not affect the fire retardant performance of the tiles, improved the luminescent qualities of the original tile surface, restoring and improving ambient light levels and because it was a dye it did not affect the acoustic properties of the ceiling by blocking the acoustic perforations. Our marketing was exceptional - our competitors were few - there were no alternatives - we made a fortune. Customers and specifiers quoted our words as the authority on respraying suspended acoustic mineral fibre ceilings ....

The company is long gone now so I don't feel particularly concerned about letting the cat out of the bag that our Acoustic Dye was in, in fact, cheap white emulsion paint - whitewash in more than one sense of the word,

Do I always believe the marketing words of a manufactuer, no matter how erudite or convincing they are ? Not a lot ....

I honestly believe as a beekeeper that bakers fondant is partly linked to overwintered losses, I would verry much like a discussion on the narrow subject and leave whatever else I do at the door, I am a beekeeper, I have been involved in training new beekeepers and trying to teach some of the wider beekeeping community some help, it is in that vein I am proffering the argument that bakers fondant could be responsible for some of the overwintered losses beekeepers suffer, HMF is responsible for bee mortality the WHO ( not WTO as I mistakenly put earlier ) is so concerned that recently they halved the amount that could be tolerated.

As for the manufacturers, I approached several to get a cross section, no one else was prepared to enter the discussion with only one other say they did not measure it for bakers fondant. The manufacturer that did makes both, no axe to grind !

 

[Patrick1]

Out of the statute of limitations now ... but actually - we had 100% Client satisfaction so you might not have a lot of success !

Don’t be so sure, I worked in the asbestos industry for a while, the claims still go on from the 60’s the proof of asbestosis is the only requirement for tec lain to be successful, there is no statute of limitation on industrial injury as long as the insurance company or underwriter can be found !

 

[Patrick1]

Hmm...

This all looks like fake news and a prime example of why if you need to advertise it ain't worth buying...

Let’s discuss that point then ! what part is fake news ? it is not news, the disinformation around bakers fondant is killing bees !

You would like to discuss another part of my life, I would like to discuss and drill down on a verry narrow subject of bakers fondant and the use of it and the relationship to winter losses, how is that fake news ?

It's not a serious problem, desist with the scare tac

Be fair, many of us have been reading papers on bees for decades and providing a link to each gossamer thin recollection is a bit much for a friendly discussion forum, this isn't BEE-L

Again what is the obsession with anything I say being related to whatever else I am doing in my life, leave the other part at the door. I am firstly a beekeeper !

Lets discuss in a constructive informative way why the WHO and many other respected beekeepers suggest that bakers fondant is killing our overwintered bees, HMF kills bees. If your only response is to in some way relate it to something else I am doing then you automatically lose your argument.

 

[Patrick1]

Respectfully, I think you miss the point; of all the possible causes of winter mortality in bee colonies, the amount of HMF in fondant has got to be one of the most minor. Legislation regarding the makeup of feeds and medications for animals which are farmed for human consumption is primarily intended to protect human health. If it is acceptable to subject bees to chemicals which would be hazardous to our own health if applied in the same way, I see no reason to create a scare over a chemical which apparently will not harm us at all. The fact that there is no statutory legislation which governs the production of fondant for bees supports this view of things.

No one is suggesting that feeding bakers fondant is the sole reason for overwintered losses just that it is a contributory factor.
To the best of my knowledge we don’t eat bees, at least not intentionally, the risk to human health is not the issue. I cannot find any manufacturer of bakers fondant that measures HMF, HMF kills bees in particular larva in overwintered colonies.

 

[Patrick1]

It hasn’t got HMF in the ingredients though

Good point maybe they should be made to list chemical reactions between ingredient when mixed and heated !
I don’t think any manufacturer is going to point out that they do not measure HMF if the HMF isn’t required to be measured,

 

[pargyle]

Don’t be so sure, I worked in the asbestos industry for a while, the claims still go on from the 60’s the proof of asbestosis is the only requirement for tec lain to be successful, there is no statute of limitation on industrial injury as long as the insurance company or underwriter can be found !

I have no fear ... we did some ceiling sprays for the Atomic Energy Authority in both their Head Office and in the control rooms of some atomic power stations ... our product was tested to extinction by their boffins as nothing was allowed on site that could either contaminate or interfere with the equipment, premises or people there ... after much testing and head scratching they were very concerned to find that there was nothing in our product that they could actually obtain a reading on from their testing .... I used to use that fact as part of my sales and marketing !

 

[pargyle]

I honestly believe as a beekeeper that bakers fondant is partly linked to overwintered losses, I would verry much like a discussion on the narrow subject and leave whatever else I do at the door, I am a beekeeper, I have been involved in training new beekeepers and trying to teach some of the wider beekeeping community some help, it is in that vein I am proffering the argument that bakers fondant could be responsible for some of the overwintered losses beekeepers suffer, HMF is responsible for bee mortality the WHO ( not WTO as I mistakenly put earlier ) is so concerned that recently they halved the amount that could be tolerated.

As for the manufacturers, I approached several to get a cross section, no one else was prepared to enter the discussion with only one other say they did not measure it for bakers fondant. The manufacturer that did makes both, no axe to grind !

I understand where you are coming from ... as you know my philosophy has always been nothing goes into my hives unless the bees bring it in - I fear that many of the 'chemicals' and 'additives' we have introduced into our hives over the years may well have had a detrimental effect on our bees. I'm foundationless because in the early days of my beekeeping (indeed prior to having bees) I discovered that foundation was being contaminated with high levels of varrroacides and in some cases was even cut with paraffin wax ! Having got to that stage I discovered bees actually seem to prefer building their own comb to building on foundation - I proved to my own satisfaction by giving them the option.

As I said, initially, in relation to bakers fondant - I don't feel qualified as a beekeeper or scientist to comment on whether HMF in fondant is a problem.... I've not used it for several years and when I did it was only to assist a colony in the spring that needed an interim feed. I think (and have said many times on here) the current propensity of some beekeepers to 'slap on a slab of fondant in the autumn - just in case' is the wrong way to do it. Thoughtless beekeeping in my opinion.

I don't trust manufacturer's information unless it is backed by some independent testing - and even then it can be fiddled (just look at the present row with Mercedes and their juggled emission claims).

It may well be that excessive amounts of fondant fed to bees (and I recognise that it is a convenient way to feed bees) may be contributing to winter losses - whether that is down to HMF or whether it's just bad beekeeping I don't know. I stick to Invertbee as a top up but I know my bees have a lot of their own stores in the hives to overwinter on and they can choose - my 14 x 12 Poly boxes, well stocked in Autumn, usually have a frame or two of stores left in spring - I've never checked to see if the stores left in spring are honey or syrup but it would be interesting to check.

The evidence for bakers fondant being detrimental is weak at present - HMF in higher concentrations is going to kill bees ... the studies show that ... whether it is present in bakers fondant to the extent that it would seriously jeopardise a colony - well, the jury's out as far as I'm concerned - a small amount of fondant to keep a starving colony alive in a late spring ? I'd be prepared to risk it..... would I slap 12.5Kg of fondant on top pf a hive now to see them through winter - No, I wouldn't - but I know people who do.

IMO and in my experience Invertbee appears to be inherently safe, home made sugar syrup (made with warm water - not boiled to extinction) appears to be safe. Small quantities of fondant fed in a late spring do not appear to kill colonies and so would appear to be safe ... I know what I do has no risk to my bees - other's must consider what you have said and make their own decisions.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the evidence is that bakers fondant could be resulting in over wintered losses,

Could you share that evidence with us please

 

[elainemary]

Well I suppose that’s one way of making sure it didn’t kill your bees

I’ve not mentioned winter losses and this was never a consideration in my decision.

My preference for bee fondant is based on value ie price (I can buy it at cost & actual outlay) + convenience (comes in the right format pack size and easy to put straight on the hive) + quality (no waste vs the one experience I had of Bakers). In my opinion it’s a risk to scrape up lumps of dried fondant from multiple hives, mix it all together and turn into syrup to feed back to the bees. Plus time and effort to save about £4

Another factor now in the mix, which I’ve not considered before this thread, is whether some makes have higher HMF or additives, which many say do not, but there is some doubt.

After all, I use just 6 packs a year as my bees are prepared well for winter in late summer, at an outlay of less than £20 for fondant, my bees are worth it

 

[Murox]

OK so lets move along that route, “speculative overstatement that is made with a view to catching the attention”

Explain what you mean please, don’t go near my company and my position because that is not what it is about, we are trying to discuss bakers fondant and its place in beekeeping and it impact on over wintered losses.

Hmm. I had not even thought about YOUR company, I am disappointed that you seem to think it relevant.

You began the thread quoting what I see as a sales pitch from a producer of sugar products highlighting HMF levels, which ended by saying “They are in the same boat as pigbreeders, cowbreeders, chickenfarms …. They all have to use registered feedmixes" but without evidence or explanation and we know that HMF naturally occurs in many food products that contain sugar and a low pH value.

In another post you then suggested feeding bakers fondant is linked bees mortality saying that high HMF feed across the winter could affect the larva and may explain some of the colony over winter losses. You referred to survival rates in another posting and also “the processing from the raw to sugar it could easily have a potentially dangerous to bees level of HMF, unlike the product specifically designed for bees.” but with no evidence or explanation.

You also alluded to the World Trade Organization (WTO) I do not quite understand what they have to do with harmful levels of Hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) in honey bees?

The study Effect of hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF) on mortality of artificially reared honey bee larvae (Apis mellifera carnica) S Krainer et al. Published 2015 lends some support to your contentions although it concludes (amongst other things)

“Under natural conditions, honey stored within the hive will probably less likely develop an HMF concentration as high as the LC50 for larvae as determined in our study. However, it is conceivable, that supplemental food, acid-catalyzed and long-term stored under improper conditions, might reach HMF levels that can cause lethal or, more likely, sublethal damage in a dimension that is not yet known. Indeed, the impact of sublethal HMF intoxication is needed to be investigated, as, especially in combination with other stressors, it is likely to reduce resistance against environmental influences, pesticides, parasites and diseases (Zirbes et al. 2013). We promote the method of rearing larvae in the laboratory for further investigations on that. The comparisons of resistance of immature and adult honey bees towards toxins, a rarely investigated study object, may improve risk assessment or our understanding of poisonous action in general. “

 

[roche]

Patrick1 said:
We were the first beekeeping company in England to obtain a UK licence to sell controlled treatments for bees, so we understand the importance of knowing rather than guessing.

Patrick1 said:
I guess it’s in our legislation somewhere we flipped the EU legislation, I am not fully up with animal feeds, you could contact them, they are verry approachable.

Hmm...
This all looks like fake news and a prime example of why if you need to advertise it ain't worth buying...

The first two paragraphs, although one applies to treatments and the second to feeds, appear to display a dichotomy in the approach to knowledge.

Let’s discuss that point then ! what part is fake news ? it is not news, the disinformation around bakers fondant is killing bees !

You would like to discuss another part of my life, I would like to discuss and drill down on a verry narrow subject of bakers fondant and the use of it and the relationship to winter losses, how is that fake news ?

Again what is the obsession with anything I say being related to whatever else I am doing in my life, leave the other part at the door. I am firstly a beekeeper !

Lets discuss in a constructive informative way why the WHO and many other respected beekeepers suggest that bakers fondant is killing our overwintered bees, HMF kills bees. If your only response is to in some way relate it to something else I am doing then you automatically lose your argument.

By fake news I am meaning that the thread started very much in the style of advertorial, and as such has to be treated with extreme skepticism. There are no references quoted or sources mentioned, which means it all needs to be fact checked as much as may be possible before one can begin to evaluate the veracity of the statements.
The very position of being an advertiser in the forum means that it is very difficult for constructive and informative discussion to occur, without the suspicion of there being a commercial angle that biases posts. I do not think one can really ride two horses.

On the other hand, if it does promote truly independent discussion with verifiable facts from authoritative sources, then it may have some benefit. Personally I am with Pargyle in that I prefer that the only stuff in hives is that which the Bees take in.

Nothing personal...

 

[Boston Bees]

Just been out and euthanised 8 colonies by putting bakers' fondant on them. Sad day, but had to be done.

 

[Patrick1]

I understand where you are coming from ... as you know my philosophy has always been nothing goes into my hives unless the bees bring it in - I fear that many of the 'chemicals' and 'additives' we have introduced into our hives over the years may well have had a detrimental effect on our bees. I'm foundationless because in the early days of my beekeeping (indeed prior to having bees) I discovered that foundation was being contaminated with high levels of varrroacides and in some cases was even cut with paraffin wax ! Having got to that stage I discovered bees actually seem to prefer building their own comb to building on foundation - I proved to my own satisfaction by giving them the option.

As I said, initially, in relation to bakers fondant - I don't feel qualified as a beekeeper or scientist to comment on whether HMF in fondant is a problem.... I've not used it for several years and when I did it was only to assist a colony in the spring that needed an interim feed. I think (and have said many times on here) the current propensity of some beekeepers to 'slap on a slab of fondant in the autumn - just in case' is the wrong way to do it. Thoughtless beekeeping in my opinion.

I don't trust manufacturer's information unless it is backed by some independent testing - and even then it can be fiddled (just look at the present row with Mercedes and their juggled emission claims).

It may well be that excessive amounts of fondant fed to bees (and I recognise that it is a convenient way to feed bees) may be contributing to winter losses - whether that is down to HMF or whether it's just bad beekeeping I don't know. I stick to Invertbee as a top up but I know my bees have a lot of their own stores in the hives to overwinter on and they can choose - my 14 x 12 Poly boxes, well stocked in Autumn, usually have a frame or two of stores left in spring - I've never checked to see if the stores left in spring are honey or syrup but it would be interesting to check.

The evidence for bakers fondant being detrimental is weak at present - HMF in higher concentrations is going to kill bees ... the studies show that ... whether it is present in bakers fondant to the extent that it would seriously jeopardise a colony - well, the jury's out as far as I'm concerned - a small amount of fondant to keep a starving colony alive in a late spring ? I'd be prepared to risk it..... would I slap 12.5Kg of fondant on top pf a hive now to see them through winter - No, I wouldn't - but I know people who do.

IMO and in my experience Invertbee appears to be inherently safe, home made sugar syrup (made with warm water - not boiled to extinction) appears to be safe. Small quantities of fondant fed in a late spring do not appear to kill colonies and so would appear to be safe ... I know what I do has no risk to my bees - other's must consider what you have said and make their own decisions.

Excellent response, such an interesting response now beekeepers can start to think about what they put in the hives, I am not suggesting a right and wrong just that beekeepers need to be aware of the maybe unknown risks particularly around HMF and corn syrup, I have said before manufacturers and individuals with agenders do things that influence beekeeping and we find about it years later to our cost, as if anyone needs reminding about Neonic’s,