The truth behind fondants

[Boston Bees]

I fed all my hives ChocoFalls soft bakers' fondant from September right through winter last year. All of them thrived on it and all of them overwintered successfully. I have had the same experience in prior years using Apifonda. I also note that The Apiarist blogger uses bakers fondant and nothing else, and has done for years.

My conclusion - it makes no difference to the bees which you feed them.

 

[Goran]

About fondants and inverting syrup, we mostly relied on Russian Taranov and many researches done around that thought. We in practice found work flawless and won't change a bit. According to what Russians say - what works, DON'T change. Some people ADORE to overcomplicate. I like it simpliest as can be. In past when we were forced to buy fondants we had different negative experiences, since we learned and put into practice making fondants for ourselves - much cheaper and completely reliable, efficient.
And at the end:

 

[robmort]

Even if you sometimes say wise things people in this forum are bound to crack jokes, make fun of you and say things which do not make any constructive point to the discussion especially so with speculative overstatement that is made with a view to catching the attention.

Respect isn't especially difficult to earn, but it must be earned – its not automatic.

Whereas dis-respect is automatic it seems.

Whatever the pros and cons of fondant, seems one moderator at least is far from "moderate" as usual, that I wonder how moderators are chosen here.

 

[Ian123]

Whereas I wonder how moderators are chosen here.

Have you watched the Hunger Games!

 

[pargyle]

Whereas dis-respect is automatic it seems.

Whatever the pros and cons of fondant, seems one moderator at least is far from "moderate" as usual, that I wonder how moderators are chosen here.

Well .... I've never considered myself moderate in any respect so I assume that means me ? I'm allowed to have opinions even if I am a moderator ....

 

[Apiarist]

Respectfully , you miss the point it is not the honey we are concerned about when feeding bakers fondant it is the bees mortality. It would seem that high HMF feed across the winter could affect the larva, this may explain some of the colony over winter losses.

I'm aware of Research which has shown that Fondant can reduce a bees lifespan, and increased levels of HMF will shorten it even more.
I remember discussing this topic with a Senior beek a while back...

Sen.beek "don't heat up your sugar above 40c when making thick syrup or you'll kill your bees with HMF"
Me "what about fondant"
Sen.beek "what about it"
Me "isn't there two ways to make fondant, one by heating the other effectively non-heating"
Sen.beek "yes, what's your point"
Me "if heating sugar for syrup harms your bees, surely feeding fondant which is made by heating sugar will also harm your bees"
Sen.beek "ohh... hadn't thought about that..."
Me "what kind of fondant do you feed your bees, you buy from a Bakery Supplier..."
Sen.beek "dunno, but it's never done them any harm"
Me "have you ever taken a two hives and fed them different types of fondant etc., to see if it affects their health"
Sen.beek "no, ... go and ask the manufacturer"
Me "I did, they won't talk to me"
Sen.beek "mmm, I wish I had done the same"

Thanks for this info. Patrick, it is helpful.

 

[drdrday]

I would say thanks to Patrick for his comments and the info. I'd even weigh up the risks...
...but to be frank, I'd personally still buy bakers fondant over bee fondant.

If my bees actually needed it...

 

[tonyofarr]

We have a stall at a farmer's market in a holiday town and often get beekeepers from other parts of the uk stopping for a chat and the most common cause of colony loss (particularly among inexperienced beeks) is starvation; a pack of bakers fondant could be lifesaving for those bees regardless of HMF levels.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Patrick. The rules are clear. You can start a thread to advertise any product of yours and have a discussion about it in the sales thread.
So I’m moving it there.
It’s my fault. It should have been there right from the start where you are free to advertise whatever you want

 

[roche]

We were the first beekeeping company in England to obtain a UK licence to sell controlled treatments for bees, so we understand the importance of knowing rather than guessing.

I guess it’s in our legislation somewhere we flipped the EU legislation, I am not fully up with animal feeds, you could contact them, they are verry approachable.

Hmm...

This all looks like fake news and a prime example of why if you need to advertise it ain't worth buying...

 

[Frizzaldo]

SOH Failure Patrick ?

I haven't fed sugar or fondant to my bees for some years ... mostly, they overwinter on their own stores - if I need to top them up I use Invertbee (presumably as the name is InvertBEE it will not be noticed by the Food Police ?). When I have fed sugar I have to say that I didn't notice any increased mortality above normal winter reductions but I don't really feel sufficiently qualified as a scientist or even as a beekeeper to comment on the words of such an authority as the MANUFACTURER of a product.

I ran (and latterly owned) a company for 30 years that turned over many millions of pounds respraying mineral fibre suspended acoustic ceilings that you find in offices and retail stores. In the days when people smoked in offices and shops the ceiling tiles used to turn brown fairly quickly and the aesthetics suffered. We had a very good business re-spraying the ceilings, in situ, following substantial masking and protection of the premises ... we used a product we had manufactured for us called Acoustic Dye ... my sales line was that it restored the original surface of the tile, was Class 0 fire rated so did not affect the fire retardant performance of the tiles, improved the luminescent qualities of the original tile surface, restoring and improving ambient light levels and because it was a dye it did not affect the acoustic properties of the ceiling by blocking the acoustic perforations. Our marketing was exceptional - our competitors were few - there were no alternatives - we made a fortune. Customers and specifiers quoted our words as the authority on respraying suspended acoustic mineral fibre ceilings ....

The company is long gone now so I don't feel particularly concerned about letting the cat out of the bag that our Acoustic Dye was in, in fact, cheap white emulsion paint - whitewash in more than one sense of the word,

Do I always believe the marketing words of a manufactuer, no matter how erudite or convincing they are ? Not a lot ....

"Have you been mis sold mineral fibre suspended acoustic ceiling spray?
If so call 1800 Dodgyspray and we can help you claim"

 

[pargyle]

"Have you been mis sold mineral fibre suspended acoustic ceiling spray?
If so call 1800 Dodgyspray and we can help you claim"

Out of the statute of limitations now ... but actually - we had 100% Client satisfaction so you might not have a lot of success !

 

[Hachi]

Patrick.
Beekeepers have been feeding Bakers Fondant, home made fondant, home made syrup and shop bought sugar well before your company and others were ever set up.
As for the suggestion there is a connection with winter losses perhaps we might look at the average BBKA ones whose members feed industrial quantities of Candipolline?

And still use matchsticks.

 

[Hachi]

I fed all my hives ChocoFalls soft bakers' fondant from September right through winter last year. All of them thrived on it and all of them overwintered successfully. I have had the same experience in prior years using Apifonda. I also note that The Apiarist blogger uses bakers fondant and nothing else, and has done for years.

My conclusion - it makes no difference to the bees which you feed them.

But does make a difference to the size of your wallet

 

[Newbeeneil]

SOH Failure Patrick ?

I haven't fed sugar or fondant to my bees for some years ... mostly, they overwinter on their own stores - if I need to top them up I use Invertbee (presumably as the name is InvertBEE it will not be noticed by the Food Police ?). When I have fed sugar I have to say that I didn't notice any increased mortality above normal winter reductions but I don't really feel sufficiently qualified as a scientist or even as a beekeeper to comment on the words of such an authority as the MANUFACTURER of a product.

I ran (and latterly owned) a company for 30 years that turned over many millions of pounds respraying mineral fibre suspended acoustic ceilings that you find in offices and retail stores. In the days when people smoked in offices and shops the ceiling tiles used to turn brown fairly quickly and the aesthetics suffered. We had a very good business re-spraying the ceilings, in situ, following substantial masking and protection of the premises ... we used a product we had manufactured for us called Acoustic Dye ... my sales line was that it restored the original surface of the tile, was Class 0 fire rated so did not affect the fire retardant performance of the tiles, improved the luminescent qualities of the original tile surface, restoring and improving ambient light levels and because it was a dye it did not affect the acoustic properties of the ceiling by blocking the acoustic perforations. Our marketing was exceptional - our competitors were few - there were no alternatives - we made a fortune. Customers and specifiers quoted our words as the authority on respraying suspended acoustic mineral fibre ceilings ....

The company is long gone now so I don't feel particularly concerned about letting the cat out of the bag that our Acoustic Dye was in, in fact, cheap white emulsion paint - whitewash in more than one sense of the word,

Do I always believe the marketing words of a manufactuer, no matter how erudite or convincing they are ? Not a lot ....

Isn't it amazing, I owned a company carrying out refurbishment works on multi-storey car parks. One rival was spraying concrete with a very expensive "anti carbonation coating" to protect against what the general public would call "concrete cancer".
We had a very cost effective masonry coating tested for its anti carbonation qualities to find that it exceeded the former material and then marketed it in competion at a slightly more competitive cost. We made a killing for about 3 years until the other company realised they could use almost any material to give protection.
It's all about marketing and as we all know "bullshit baffles brains!"

 

[Markthebuilder]

So can I feed Sainsbury’s sugar to my bees?

Food and feed hygiene for farmers and growers
Animal feed regulations
Guide
There is no specific positive list of feed materials that can be fed to farm animals. This is partly because of the likely length of such a list and partly because research into animal nutrition continually finds new uses for potential crops. It is your choice what to feed your animals based on the species you farm, their produce, and their nutritional needs.

 

[Markthebuilder]

Would be interested to know which legislation they are referring to WRT what you can feed bees...

Legislation for animal feed businesses
A feed business is legally defined as "any undertaking, whether for profit or not and whether public or private, carrying out any operation of production, manufacture, processing, storage, transport or distribution of feed, including any producer producing, processing or storing feed for feeding to animals on his own holding".
UK laws on the composition and marketing of animal feed are derived from EU measures.
Animal feed regulations cover:

• the additives (vitamins, colourants, flavourings, binders etc) authorised for use in animal feed
• the maximum levels of various contaminants - eg arsenic, lead, dioxins and certain pesticides
• certain ingredients that must not be used in feed
• the nutritional claims that can be made for certain feeds
• the names and descriptions which must be applied to various feed materials - that is, ingredients fed singly
• the information to be provided on feed labels

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Isn't it amazing, I owned a company carrying out refurbishment works on multi-storey car parks. One rival was spraying concrete with a very expensive "anti carbonation coating" to protect against what the general public would call "concrete cancer".
We had a very cost effective masonry coating tested for its anti carbonation qualities to find that it exceeded the former material and then marketed it in competion at a slightly more competitive cost. We made a killing for about 3 years until the other company realised they could use almost any material to give protection.
It's all about marketing and as we all know "bullshit baffles brains!"

Concrete Cancer - the result of Alkali-Silicate reaction in the concrete. It became a problem when environmental laws stopped cement manufacturers letting the alkali from the process go out of the plant and up the chimney.
I spent a few years of my career as operations manager at the Pozzolanic Company office in Ditton. Pozzolan was virtually all Silicon and was used in Concrete mixes that used certain aggregates, chiefly in the South West which were prone to suffering the reaction. The phenomenon saw motorway bridges weakened, leading to collapse. By adding Pozzolan to the concrete in the batching plants the alkali reacted with the Pozzolan and left the aggregate alone. Pozzolan was selected/conditioned fly ash from pulverised coal boilers in base-load power stations. Now the stations are being demolished it will be interesting to see what replaces it.

 

[Boston Bees]

I'm aware of Research which has shown that Fondant can reduce a bees lifespan

"I'm aware of Research"

Words that should never be spoken without a link to a peer-reviewed paper .....

 

[mbc]

It's not a serious problem, desist with the scare tac

"I'm aware of Research"

Words that should never be spoken without a link to a peer-reviewed paper .....

Be fair, many of us have been reading papers on bees for decades and providing a link to each gossamer thin recollection is a bit much for a friendly discussion forum, this isn't BEE-L