Swarm Ownership law.

[Nightynight]

edit: just read the other thread and what Joseph had to say about colour and genetics. Apologies
My understanding of the genetics of colour is that its far from black and white,( ie. its not a simple case of yellow is dominant, black is recessive or visa/versa ).
Anybody who claims to know ( or have their "head around ")the genetics issue should publish, as they'd probably be up for a prize or somesuch.

As to swarm collecting, if I was collecting a swarm and someone turned up with a prior claim to it I'd think negotiating a compromise would be the right way to go ( eg. concede the swarm for an offer to pay expenses).
I think most people would struggle to negotiate amicably with a person who was two faced enough not to press their case at the time but was happy to winge later and out of sight.[/QUOTE


Quite, if it transpired as according to Joesph...

I would of given Eric the choice to leave/help or get knocked on his a£$e and taken my bee's myself one way or the other. (then again I'm not very PC, the squaddie mind set in me)

Something doesn't ring true in this tale.

 

[itma]

I think you have a good case.

Beware.
When a lawyer says that, it usually means "this could generate some decent fees for me".

It does not mean "you would be certain of winning, if it came to Court".

 

[NickB]

Before Joseph instructs his lawyers,perhaps he should read on....
My name is Nick,and I am a beekeeper based in North London.
I have worked with Eric for nearly three years,and was present for part of the evening under discussion.
When I arrived at the scene to assist Eric,he was preparing to box the swarm.The street was quite busy with people,and members of the local Orthodox community were helping to keep people (including some children) at a safe distance from the operation.
Whilst Eric was up the tree I assisted with smoke,holding the box and (to be honest for most of the time) fielding questions from onlookers in a mixture of English and German (this is so you know who I am,Joseph).
I was not involved with the conversation you had with Eric.I was either up the tree or answering questions,but I can say with certainty there were no raised voices or fingers being pointed.However I DO remember the conversation I had with Eric immediately afterwards.He said he had spoken with you and that the conversation went cordially.You accepted that the swarm was ferae naturae and that you seemed fairly laid-back and reasonable about it.You explained about the virgin queen etc. There was no sign of any disagreement or unpleasantness.
I did explain to some onlookers,the law as it applies to swarms.This is subtle and,to an outside observer,occasionally counter-intuitive,but there it is.
I stand by what I said to them,and I stand by the actions that Eric and I took.
Knowing Eric reasonably well,I find some of your descriptions of his remarks,especially regarding his motivations and tone,rather hard to accept.For instance,I expect that Eric has passed on as many swarms as he has kept for himself (I have one).
The tenor of the original post all seems a bit post-hoc to me.
As for "karmically" equating the events of the swarm-collection with the theft of a hive,I think that is in poor taste.
There's a world of difference between being the first bee-keeper to arrive on the scene,suited and booted to collect a swarm in a public street,and sneaking in and stealing £200-worth of hive and bees from an established and concealed apiary.
Shame on YOU Joseph.
It's only by an accident of placement that it wasn't MY hive that was stolen.I have had to move my hives to a less satisfactory location and worry about security in a way I never did before (usual after any sort of robbery)
Am I "karmically" a villain,too,in your eyes?
Should you wish to pursue this matter further,I would be happy to make a statement in defence of Eric's actions.
However,perhaps it would be better for you to move on in life from this nonsense,and concentrate upon being a good beekeeper,which neither me,nor Eric,doubt that you actually are,rather than a poor lawyer.

 

[The Cumbrian]

If your father had not been there you would of been no wiser.

I am afraid that if it were me who had somebody (who appears to have been known to the person whose hives the bees came from) take a swarm of bees despite being told that things were in hand I wouldn't let the matter drop either.

To me (just my personal opinion you understand) forget theft and questions of ownership it is just plain "nasty" to behave is such a way and I would make certain anyone else who was likely to be affected by such actions knew the situation.

I can't think of any circumstances where I would find it acceptable to do such a thing or have it done to me.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I am now starting to wonder if there was a third person involved,perhaps on the grassy knoll.

 

[Black Comb]

A couple of points.
Taking someone to court may end up costing an awful lot more than you think.

When I first started I lost a swarm. A guy in the village who had helped me lots mentioned he had caught one that very same day. Perhaps it was mine I said.
Well, no idea who's it was but I've united with a small hive to boost a colony - in other words tough T.
So, it taught me a lesson. I clip all my queens now and look very hard for queen cells. I await the day when I catch one of his.
We are still friends. A swarm of bees is not worth falling about about, After all, you did let them swarm!

 

[Black Comb]

I am now starting to wonder if there was a third person involved,perhaps on the grassy knoll.

Yes, he is in the mafia.

 

[VEG]

well the plot thickens

 

[Joseph]

To be honest I too am rather tired by this topic on here, but I will respond to Nick.

You explained about the virgin queen etc. There was no sign of any disagreement or unpleasantness. I did explain to some onlookers,the law as it applies to swarms.This is subtle and,to an outside observer,occasionally counter-intuitive,but there it is.

So there was some discussion as to why Eric was taking bees that had come from our hive? Nick, Eric here says that it was never established that the bees were actually from my hive, yet you too testify that I had explained the virgin queen situation and that he accepted that. And you seem to be saying that bee ownership law was under the spotlight on that day and you explained the "law" as you saw it.

But Eric was NOT the first on site to claim the bees, nor were they lost given that we had followed them, and so I think, the law is less clear than you make out. Perhaps indeed I have no case, perhaps I do. And yes it is true, that I let you get on with your work, Eric had made it quite clear to all of my family that he WAS taking these bees home. Little choice did I have as you well know, given the absolutely dreadful commotion that had been achieved in timing this collection at the worst possible time in the absence of knowledge of local comings and goings. Had I collected the swarm just a little later, there would not have been that crowd to deal with.

I am afraid that if it were me who had somebody (who appears to have been known to the person whose hives the bees came from) take a swarm of bees despite being told that things were in hand I wouldn't let the matter drop either.

To me (just my personal opinion you understand) forget theft and questions of ownership it is just plain "nasty" to behave is such a way and I would make certain anyone else who was likely to be affected by such actions knew the situation.

I can't think of any circumstances where I would find it acceptable to do such a thing or have it done to me.

Thank you. My sentiments exactly. At the the end of the day what I think is not in dispute here, is that regardless of what the law is, Eric knew that in all likelihood the bees were from my hive. He was asked repeatedly to leave a delicate situation alone and was told that we wanted to collect the bees later to avoid a large crowd. Eric has given you bees in past and perhaps that is commendable. But he walked off with mine, perhaps illegally or perhaps within the letter of the law, but he was still ruthless, A: for taking our bees in late June because he could, B: for making it obvious to a large audience that there were urban beehives in the vicinity.

 

[Nightynight]

To be honest I too am rather tired by this topic on here, but I will respond to Nick.



So there was some discussion as to why Eric was taking bees that had come from our hive? Nick, Eric here says that it was never established that the bees were actually from my hive, yet you too testify that I had explained the virgin queen situation and that he accepted that. And you seem to be saying that bee ownership law was under the spotlight on that day and you explained the "law" as you saw it.

But Eric was NOT the first on site to claim the bees, nor were they lost given that we had followed them, and so I think, the law is less clear than you make out. Perhaps indeed I have no case, perhaps I do. And yes it is true, that I let you get on with your work, Eric had made it quite clear to all of my family that he WAS taking these bees home. Little choice did I have as you well know, given the absolutely dreadful commotion that had been achieved in timing this collection at the worst possible time in the absence of knowledge of local comings and goings. Had I collected the swarm just a little later, there would not have been that crowd to deal with.



Thank you. My sentiments exactly. At the the end of the day what I think is not in dispute here, is that regardless of what the law is, Eric knew that in all likelihood the bees were from my hive. He was asked repeatedly to leave a delicate situation alone and was told that we wanted to collect the bees later to avoid a large crowd. Eric has given you bees in past and perhaps that is commendable. But he walked off with mine, perhaps illegally or perhaps within the letter of the law, but he was still ruthless, A: for taking our bees in late June because he could, B: for making it obvious to a large audience that there were urban beehives in the vicinity.

why is this an issue? everybody knows in my street I have bees in my back garden

 

[Robbie & Jans Bees]

*****

The fact is that this bloke wants removing from any swarm list I thought bee keepers work together for good of the bees not steal from each other lets hope all his bees swarm and he gets his come-up-ance.

 

[Joseph]

Because you never know how people will react to you keeping stinging insects right close by. When I started up, I was taught that out of sight and out of mind is the best way to keep bees in London or every was nest and wasp in the vicinity becomes your fault.

 

[VEG]

It is very very difficult to judge what is going on here as you cant see eye to eye the person you are speaking with.
Personally if I had lost a swarm from my hive and someone got there before me I would have helped them to get it.
Its swings and roundabouts you loose a swarm one day, some time later you get a call to pick one up. They probably came from a beekeeper some where.

 

[TOBY-3652]

bees must be diferent to pheasants. when i was gamekeeping, once my pheasants were off my property, the next door neighbour could shoot them on his he could do what he liked, and he often did, he would stand 100 yards from the boundry and shoot them then he would send dogs on our land to retreive his birds. and there was nothing i could do so i suppose its the same with bees.... sorry for going off topic but this thread is winding on a bit

 

[Joseph]

It is very very difficult to judge what is going on here as you cant see eye to eye the person you are speaking with.
Personally if I had lost a swarm from my hive and someone got there before me I would have helped them to get it.
Its swings and roundabouts you loose a swarm one day, some time later you get a call to pick one up. They probably came from a beekeeper some where.

That adds another dimension, but what if you HAD been there, and had decided to collect at a better and safer time with members of your family watching the site to dissuade any bee-keeper from taking the swarm before he commenced his work, and had actually asked the guy not to start his collection before he began?

 

[keith pierce]

I have on several occasions knelt down in front of a swarm,and just about to knock it down into a skep, to suddenly see it disperse in front of my eyes and dissapear into the far blue yonder.

So a swarm in a skep is worth two in a bush.

 

[VEG]

I have also had a swarm take off before I had the chance to put them into something, this was near a main road.

 

[mbc]

I have on several occasions knelt down in front of a swarm,and just about to knock it down into a skep, to suddenly see it disperse in front of my eyes and dissapear into the far blue yonder.

So a swarm in a skep is worth two in a bush.

lol, get em while you can !

 

[tonybloke]

> Joseph. was there not a time during these proceedings when neither you or your father was there watching the swarm? if so, I'd have to say you had no claim to them.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

this argument is going on a bit with talk of the law this, the law that etc. I can see both sides of the argument, but what about the law of common decency? -
enough said - this debate could go on and on!