Swarm Ownership law.

[Poly Hive]

There is in fact case law which relates.

I bought a book about it from Anick last year thinking at some point it might come in handy.

I am off for the weekend and so you will have to wait as I am not spending my precious free time studying esoteric law on swarms.

However from memory I think that once a swarm has left your property ie the hive they are anyones to take. I will double check this next week.

PH

 

[HaroldC]

Hi

Couple of points here. Are you a member of your local BKA? Is 'Eric'? If so a call to your local committee might resolve the matter. In our local association what happens is this:-When one of our association swarm co-ordinator is called - he would try and contact the nearest member to collect them. If I turned up and was told someone else was dealing with the swarm I think I would try and speak to them.

However, there are some mavericks about.

Harold

 

[Haughton Honey]

Tell me about it.......I was handed a cut-out in a large wicker basket from a pest controller yesterday and when I got it to an apiary and opened it up just found one large, gooey mess of comb and bees as the chap had just dumped everything in and wrapped it all up in an old curtain.

It's a sad sight watching 30,000-odd bees crawling around on their last legs.....

Needless to say, he has since been 'educated'!

 

[Friar Tuck]

What happens if your queen is clearly and uniquely marked, and you have photo's / evidence to prove it?

 

[rae]

Got a mate who can write a convincing legal letter? Summarise the points in this thread and find Eric - probably pretty easy, ask for the swarm co-ordinator. Most people roll over pretty quickly when threatened with small claims.

 

[justme]

My take on what I had been told was that if I had a swarm leave my property AND i stayed with it or in sight of it, then it stayed mine (as long as I eventually collected it). Same thing being if I found a swarm in the hedge, a tree etc, the point being, 'stayed with it or in sight of it', not telling someone its mine and going and leaving it.

People are funny animals and even if you told everyone that it was yours and you were going to collect it I daresay there'd usually be someone who called someone else out.

If you were called out to a swarm and drove some miles to get there, then found no-one attending the swarm or at least physically watching it with a box etc ready to collect, would you really be happy with being told it was claimed already????? and you cant collect it.

 

[Black Comb]

I wonder if Eric posts on this forum?

 

[margob99]

Despite what the law says, if this were me, I would have to take the realistic view. How much value in £ terms would you place on the swarm? Weigh that up against all the legal routes you could take, plus all the aggro invested in it. Shrug shoulders, regret the loss and move on.

But that's just me.

 

[madasafish]

If there are NO identifying marks on the swarmed bees - i.e. marked queen, the ownership as claimed by the OP is based on his word only.


Period.

Not a very sound basis on which to go to any court - in legal terms.

I'd ask the guy who got them to give them back... Nicely.

Other than that, I would not spend any money on it....

Courts do not take kindly to unsubstantiable claims to property..

 

[rae]

Other than that, I would not spend any money on it....

Courts do not take kindly to unsubstantiable claims to property..

OP has a witness (his father) who can confirm that the swarm came from his hive. I wouldn't spend money, but the time spent writing a decent letter is worth it, just for a laugh.

 

[jezd]

Absolutely.

There are no laws or regulations laid down in respect of ownership of swarms.

Swarms are classed as a natural phenomenon. Whoever goes about collecting them first takes ownership of them at that point.

Not sure that is fully true, I thought that once you start to address and collect a swarm you are legally liable for it at that point onwards. ie problems is causes and public safety become your issue once you start a collection.

I am sure this stuff is written down somewhere.

Once they leave you they are fair game, all this I will be there in a few hours its tosh.

JD

 

[Stiffy]

It is also worth pointing out that the bloke who took them despite your protests is a class A pratt, who, if they had been my Bees he was taking, would have gone home a little sore and rather sheepish !!!!

I would have asked Eric if he was really that desperate to want the swarm. If he said yes I would reply that they are full of varroa, hive beetle and foul brood and that he was welcome to them. Not that I would be bitter or anything

 

[davethegas]

Talking of HSE bs, who was footing Erics ladder, did he have the right safety gear, did he put cones out and if he was working from a ladder, he would not have had 3 points of contact all the time. Surely if he is working for or on beehalf of a governmental department then he would need to have taken Care.......failing that, you should have set fire to the ladder! (Lols) dtg.

 

[RoofTops]

I missed this thread so am joing late. The law in England is quite clear - while the beekeeper maintains sight of a swarm it belongs to him/her although this does not give them the right to trespass. Once you take your eyes off it, i.e telling someone you'll be back later to collect them, it is finders keepers. This is because bees are not classed as domesticated animals. For example, if you run over a sheep in the road the carcase still belongs to the farmer not you - so you can't shove it in the boot of the car and then put it in the freezer - which you could if it was a wild rabbit. It would be the same if you reared butterflies in your garden. While they were in your garden they are yours but if they wander off they are a "wild animals" and belong to no one unless, in the case of bees, you are in hot pursuit.

No idea what the law is in the rest of the Realm.

 

[dudley]

This was discussed at great depth in response to a thread by Joseph on 24th June 2010, 10:59 PM

Sorry I do not know how to link to a thread.

And I cant even reply to the correct thread, lol.

 

[Hivemaker.]

No need to link to it.....this is the thread by Joseph.

 

[Dishmop]

He just said "sorry, finders keepers, I was here first"

but reading all the thread..... he didnt find it did he!!! the owner hadnt lost it......

 

[psafloyd]

Not sure that is fully true, I thought that once you start to address and collect a swarm you are legally liable for it at that point onwards. ie problems is causes and public safety become your issue once you start a collection.


JD

That can't be quite right, as it may be you are unable to capture and hive the swarm.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

The BBKA leaflet on swarm collection says...

"Once you approach a swarm with the intention of collection and removal
it becomes your property and your responsibility to protect bystanders".

So, irrespective of the ethics of the situation, it looks like Eric did nothing wrong in the eyes of the law.
And, when you think about it, this law makes sense - a swarm in a public place needs dealing with, you'd be waiting a long time if you expected the owner of every swarm to turn up to collect it. And, beekeepers would be less inclined to turn out to collect a swarm if they were likely to do all that work only for someone to come along the next day and claim legal ownership.

I guess it's inevitable that these kind of disputes will arise.

 

[Gardenbees]

It doesn't look like Eric could be considered culpable in this case; there is also a question of whether the council would consider it their duty to remove something which might be considered a health and safety liability. I would disagree, of course, but they could claim that this was a legitimate concern which necessitated asking their own swarm-catching contact to take action.

In spite of the legality of collecting a "stray" swarm, it would have been good form to contact a central swarm coordinator (who would presumably have confirmed that the swarm had an owner, or at least a recent owner, and was earmarked for collection). Personally I would have tied a note around a suitable nearby object, with a mobile no. and a quick note about the swarm, if I was keen to collect it later.

There is a double edge to all this of course: the more one makes a claim to ownership of a swarm, the more likely people are to hold the "owner" liable for any resulting problems, e.g. passers-by getting stung. Unlikely with a swarm, but not unlikely that someone who was stung (by any creature whatsoever!) in the vicinity might make a complaint.

I am blessed with really great neighbours: when a small cast swarm appeared in a hedge near my house recently, a beekeeper neighbour knocked on my door to ask if they were "mine", i.e. from one of my hives, before attempting to collect them. They didn't really need to according to the law, but this kind of friendly gesture helps everyone and also gives a good impression to bystanders.