Strike ?

[Blue Spinnaker]

I'm not a teacher but I do visit a lot of schools and I think you are being a teensy bit harsh. I can't defend the holidays but the schools in Norfolk I visit tend to be full of teachers well before 8.30 and well after 4p.m. I commonly go to meetings in schools which don't begin til 4p.m.
Teaching is also a pretty full on cognitive activity. Don't knock it til you've done it.
Cazza

Am not commenting on the strike, but I have to add that there is not a (primary, can't speak for secondary) teacher that I know who is in school later than 8.15, or who left before 4.30, often much later, to go home with piles of marking and planning to do for the next day (often to be written out in detail and handed in)...approx 4 lessons a day, each needing up to 4 different activities to allow for different abilities, and that's before the mountain of paperwork research into new subjects and preparation of resources.

Then there's the issue of dealing with behavioural issues day in, day out, being sworn at, having things thrown at you, tables upturned, and I'm still talking about primary (children, not adults . As for the holidays, I always reckoned it took a fortnight to get records up to date and clearing up at the end of the summer, a fortnight to recuperate, and a fortnight to prepare for September. Ask the family of any teacher how long they spend doing their job.... it never ends even when you are on holiday!

As Cazza says, don't knock it till you've done it.
Rant over.

 

[BeeNice]

Can we now get back to BEEKEEPING!!!

 

[greatbritishhoney]

As Cazza says, don't knock it till you've done it.
Rant over.

I would certainly never knock teachers. Many of my friends and family members are teachers and they do a great job. In fact, I am myself thinking about going into teaching.
What I do object to is unions flexing their muscles halfway through a negotiating process, leaving many less well-paid people out of pocket.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's the whole point - the buggers don't even know for sure yet what they are striking about.
Luckily my union (the other half of the immigration mob) are negotisating not striking.
But please don't start me again!!
by the way did stick my bare hands in the hive - first time ever. Highly recommended, no sting but now I'm calm

 

[Blue Spinnaker]

Can we now get back to BEEKEEPING!!!

Quite right ....

I wonder what would happen if a group of militant bees went on strike - have you ever seen the film Antz?!

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

I'm not saying they don't do a good job, there are many sectors that do, almost an endless list. Ask the people that go out and catch our fish, oil rig worker and so on and so on. All hard worker doing a good job, but they don't get the same perks as the public workers.
Now there is one sector that I would not include and that is bankers, don't forget, we would not be having these problems if it were not for them...

Brian

 

[nelletap]

I think it is all too easy to look at extreme cases and then draw the conclusions. I was a teacher and my pension struggles to £9,000 and I pay tax on it. In my day, all I got was a £30 maternity grant - so I guess the statistics all depend also on the years during which you worked.
A couple of observations: 1. amazing how many parents sigh with relief when their 2-3 children start back at school for the autumn term because they found it hard work to look after them during the summer break yet they expect teachers to be able to manage up to 38 of such children. I know I could not have managed some classes of year 10 boys when I was 61. Perhaps there should be some way older teachers could have a slightly different role - perhaps more admin based.
I thought fraud was when you promised one set of conditions and then did not come up with what was promised. Seems to describe most pensions at the moment. Except perhaps bankers pensions - seems to me that those bankers deserve the animosity being directed to more run of the mill workers. But then perhaps I am looking at some of the extremes like Fred the shred.
But lets leave this politics to other places and concentrate on the bees.
Tricia

 

[viridens]

I believe that most of the unions have been in previous negotiations about pensions and have accepted that properly negotiated changes are necessary and indeed require new entrants to Local Government and NHS schemes etc to retire at 65 rather than 60, together with other changes have already been agreed a while ago with the respective trade unions.
However the accepted principle has been to respect and honour any accrued rights and this is where this coalition government have already failed. Where were the negotiations with the unions regarding the RPI/CPI change? It was done by sleight of hand and when pressed, the coalition have clearly stated “it’s not up for any negotiation” and that is why we are where we are at present with the current strike and the future legal challenges.
This change was enacted following assurances from all three of the parties prior to the election that no changes whatsoever would be made to any accrued rights of any public sector pension scheme . However despite this, the RPI/CPI change was one of the first made by this government after the election with NO consultation, and NO negotiation. Meanwhile, shop prices etc are rising at RPI, not CPI rates as they always do.

This RPI/CPI change will progressively erode the value of public sector pensions of those due to retire soon and those already retired, for whom the retrospective alteration of scheme rules it is a betrayal of trust leading to progressive poverty in old age, some say as much as 40% of pension will be lost after 20 years, and it is clearly to late for them to make additional pension provision. This is NOT what was signed up to. I assume that pensioners were the first to be hit because they are a 'soft' target?

On the other hand, maybe the government have shown us the way. Just tell your mortgage or loan company that times are hard, and you need to pay them progressively less each year, and much less in total. I'm sure they will accept that without taking action...

Off of my soapbox and out into the bee realm now..

 

[Storm™]

At the end of the day if you take a career path based on what you know will be your future
and
you got yourself in debt via student loans to take that path
and
you were assured via past strike action compromise between the government and unions years ago that this would be your fair pension arrangement
and
you have a contract that states this
and
you turn up for work

Then I dont think I have the rite to criticise these people for striking if the goal posts have been moved through no fault of their own. BANKS. Greed from politicians. People rushing to spend budgets at end of tax year. Bonuses. These are the problems. PENSIONS are sacrosanct. End of story.

Putting this into another context

I have no money. So I am afraid I will have to reduce the amount of council tax I pay and income tax. I will have to refrain paying road tax because I spent too much in years past. So sorry government, you will have to go without until this lean time is over for me.

Yes well I can see that would wash.....

 

[greatbritishhoney]

you take a career path based on what you know will be your future
.....

Tell me what that career path is and I'll take it.!

Times and situations change - for all of us, the public sector is not immune.
I agree that the negotiations may have been unfair, but this strike action is way too premature and will not do teachers any good.

 

[Erichalfbee]

PENSIONS are sacrosanct. End of story.

That's the point.

My private pension bought by me in the private sector was rubbed out by the crash. I saved and saved and it was all for nowt. If I had been employed by the State it would have been guaranteed.

 

[RoseCottage]

This is a beekeeping thread but I am amazed about people claiming a decent pension is a right and sacrosanct - some joker just did this on the news.

I have worked since I was 18 defending the realm, creating jobs, securing people and futures. Not in the armed forces, not on behalf of Government or public sector. I have no pension as a result of dishonest city types stealing my little pot. We can rile against the city as much as we want but that is how we find ourselves today. Deal with it. My skills are very high but my particular market is what you would call niche. As a result of the downturn I have been unable to get work since March. You can imagine the strain, stress, and sleepless nights I go through trying to quite literally keep a roof over the head of my wife and daughter. My 2 bed house was my only other asset and it has been eroded in value by 45% in the last 2 years (I am about to put it on the market as we cannot afford to stay without any income).

I'm 46 and have never claimed a thing off the state as I firmly believe that I pay taxes to help those who genuinely need it.

I will have to work probably until either my body breaks or I die..no pension to call down when I get tired in my 50's, 60's or whenever. When in work I start before 8 and more often than not work until 10 at night. Not my choice but necessity.

So yes teachers work hard, deserve more, have my sympathy usually but right now have chosen a wrong position and are utterly mistaken to state that a pension is a right. Simply in the real, actual, world its not. Nor is there a right to stop working at 65/6/7/8 or any other age. We all need to find a way to feed our families for ourselves.

I would say that the vast majority of the strikers have insufficient idea of what it means to have to live life with absolutely no safety net. They may not like to but a lot of us private wealth generators now find ourselves in this position through no fault of our own.

These are strangely hard times - even for well educated, hard working, types like me. I think that we all need to share the load a little. Reducing the pension arrangements to genuinely reflect the likely real world situation is a necessity and frankly some of the soft, fluffy, attitudes could certainly do with a reality check too.

Also I judge by my own experiences and I have to say I have met many teachers that I wouldn't employ because they are lazy, complacent, ill disciplined or bizarrely challenged with poor literacy (I kid you not). Not everyone, of-course, but quite a lot in my own personal experience. Pretty disappointing.

Sam

 

[dpearce4]

Teachers earn between 30 - 40K a year. Get very good Holidays . what are they moaning at........

not all of us do.

some of us are on less that £18k and that is then pro rata'd down to 39weeks that we work so have to work in the school hoidays also. so gross pay of £13k.

my rant over.

if i didnt love the job i wouldnt be teaching gardening and cookery to violent and abusive kids that have been excluded from mainstream schools so other peoples kids get their education that they think they deserve for 40hrs per week.

but what i would say is its better than dealing with ******* customers that i used to have thinking that because they were spending a few pounds per week with me they could treat me like something they trod in for 10 years when i ran my own business.

having been on both sides of the fence now believe me teachers are worth every penny of what they are payed!!!!

 

[jimbeekeeper]

My Wife is a teacher...she was at work today! Not in the same union as todays strike action.

Remember it is not just about teachers today, but one union and manly about public sector workers, of which teachers are a small part.

But as usual the media jumps on the teachers band wagon.

Had to laugh at a local news report today interviewing parents at a local school complaining that teachers where on strike and the government pays thier pension/wages.

Said parents are on benefits and have never worked a day in their lives....who pays their benefits?

 

[Nomadickarl]

Wake up to the future people.

Teachers, well I was one but left as like many others. It is a demanding, tiring and stressful job. In order to get the best from children you need the best teachers. Do you really want your children/grandchildren being taught by a teacher who is 67/68 having been working for 46 years with 12/13/14/15/16/17 year old. How many of you have taught 30 year 10 pupils in an inner city comp for 6 straight lessons? Try it. Do you think sickness will go through the roof? Who pays then? What if all the public sector workers stop paying into a pension? The state will have to take the burden. Will people with great qualifications will work in a classroom environment under these conditions? If teaching is such an 'easy' number why are attrition rates so high? Why have government shemes to get the best graduates into the classroom failed, because once these graduates are in they realise its easier outside in the private sector, I know I trained some of them!

When you left school you had a choice, public sector, or private sector. Live with the choice. All of my friends work in the private sector, earn fantastic sums of money, have a company car, private health care, jolly boys days out (sorry team building days), Friday flyers etc etc. Ok some of this has slowed due to our present economic times but they will return.

The public sector pension pot is invested and independent financial parties have all confirmed that the pot is healthy and CAN support present payments and for the next decade. Already pension liabilites are falling and it is getting cheaper for the state to fund. Google it, you will see I am correct. OK the police pension is different as there is not pot of money, its council tax. STOP listening to the government rant and get the facts, there are two sides to this story but as I have found over the last few years there are too many people on here that are both retired (so I'm alright me) and read the Daily Mail...well look at the pictures or colour them in.

Do you want a 65 year old police officer protecting your children on a Friday/Saturday night in anytown in the UK? Do you want your parents or grand parents rolling around with drunks at 3 o'clock in the morning or being glassed? What happens when they are injured? Do you heal as well at 25 as you do at 60? As quickly or at all. More medical retirements and compensation? As your house burns down and they raise the ladder to get you out, do you want the agile 25 year old racing up the ladder who a more mature firefighter that is pushing his/her mi 60's? I know there are very fit and active people at there at these ages but that is not the majority? Is a 60+ year old police officer going to keep pace with the 16 year old drunk who stole a car at 0100 in the morning and then ran over a relative? The officer couldn't keep up with them so guess what, they got away. Ever heard the saying 'society gets the police service it deserves'. How many of you pay 11%of your salary into your pension pot?For a top end PC thats pushing £300 a month. Can you afford that, no nor can a lot of officers. Thats what the fire service do and the police service. OK the prison service pay their officers less but they pay very little into their pensions. How much do you want to be paid to be shot in the face like the Northumbria officer shot by Mr Moat? How many of you are due to finish work at 4 o'clock only still to be at work at 4 in the morning either dealing with a criminal, or maybe at the local Royal Infirmary having been stuck with a needle whilst searching a known drug dealer in YOUR community who you now know is HIV positive? That being the drug dealer who is trying to palm his poison on your families.

What are MP's doing about their pensions - anyone seen that in the news? Goodle it. Nothing since July 09! Welcome to the Orwellian state.

I agree the state is too big, but that is 13 years of a labour government recruting to the state to secure votes and fudge employment figures. Stop knocking the public sector especially those on the font line. Be careful what you wish for as you could find that the arsonist who burned your house down (fire service didn't get there in time to save it as the arthritis had kicked in), walks away uncaptured as the police have too few staff to attend or are too short on numbers, and the nurses and doctors that you need to help with your burns and lung problems are too few and far between and are unable to coming runing to you as you crash because they are too old and tired after 40+ years on the front line. Then there are the vital admin staff that need to book your appointments to get the burns looked at or clean the ward.

I feel for you, and contrary to popular belief most people don't want to strike but it becomes the last resort, and not for self interest or self preservation.

 

[RosieMc]

Greece
http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-germany-pensions-2010-4

If it is going to be increasingly more exprensive to go on holiday to Greece, perhaps they may turn to beekeeping instead.

 

[dpearce4]

WELL SAID Nomadickarl

 

[VEG]

My wife is a teacher she get good holidays yes, but spends many many hours marking and preparing work supposedly in her time off. When she is in work she also spends many hours at home at the end of the day marking yet more paperwork. So unless you live with a teacher or are one it is very easy to criticise when on the out side, when you dont have a clue what they actually do in their own time.

 

[hedgerow pete]

i have several members of the family that are teachers and they all joined because of what it ment to them,

the biggest cash cow going with no draw backs and a complete avalibility to screw the system.

and as for the idea that there are 65 year old police men on the streets is tosh, ALL POLICE know that after they hit late fourties the big fiddle is claiming work related stress and having to have time off to deal with it, because when they joined they were not trained in stress management, plus of course you have now alll those niggly injuries from wrestling with all those drunks in city centres for all those years to help you along aswell.

sorry people but there is totaly no sympathy in this house hold for people who do have a cast iron garenteed pension no matter who small it might get, try being in your fourties with absolutly nothing!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

in the end it all started when that one eyed ***** f*^&ed up the economy starting by selling our gold reserves on ebay with no reserve!!
And he wanted to head the IMF - I wouldn't put him in charge of MFI. It's scary to think that we are more broke than Greece the difference being our debt gets called in in a couple of years