Raw honey

[warsaw_hive]

Discuss

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...-winnie-the-pooh-in-uk-honey-labelling-ruling

Edit: and https://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKFTT/GRC/2024/157.html

 

[Sutty]

"argued that their honey was not heated above its natural temperature"

I wonder what temperature they count that as?....

 

[Newbeeneil]

Interesting.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Certainly sets a precedent for Waltham Forest but anywhere else?

 

[warsaw_hive]

The FT also have an article https://www.ft.com/content/c3c59e65-8f0a-4416-9dd4-fb0ff5ada59c . If it won't let you read it without a subscription then find it via Google and that usually works.

 

[hemo]

Artisan honey anyone, Enrico will like the ruling.

 

[Jimmy]

The FT also have an article https://www.ft.com/content/c3c59e65-8f0a-4416-9dd4-fb0ff5ada59c . If it won't let you read it without a subscription then find it via Google and that usually works.

For non-subscribers, attached is a PDF version of the FT article.
It's quite a detailed article, well worth a read. The Guardian article in the OP is clearer in some ways though

For me personally I think any change to the law is not a good idea, I'd find it near impossible to produce runny honey with any kind of shelf life if I couldn't heat and my raw honey naturally sets to a knife-bending consistency, including summer honey.

 

[hemo]

None of my honey is warmed above 42c .
That which sets is sold as such but mostly I'm fortunate that fructose tends to be a greater part of my honey so runny honey can remain so for several months.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

after reading that - looks like the 'raw' honey supplicants are running out of straws to clutch at.

 

[warsaw_hive]

Certainly sets a precedent for Waltham Forest but anywhere else?

It would be a brave Trading Standards officer to object to the use of 'raw'. Waltham got a kicking.

Nevertheless, I think the judge has this wrong and has relied too heavily on the 7 honey samples. One was the Greek raw honey of this case (presumably they picked the unblended), the 6 others were I guess the cheapest supermarket honey they could find.

One supermarket honey failed both it's HMF and DN levels so shouldn't be sold as honey. That really leaves only 5 samples to compare against the raw honey.

2 of the supermarket honeys had DN higher than the Greek raw (which would indicate the two supermarket honeys are the better).

All 5 supermarket honeys had a HMF substantially higher than the Greek raw (which would indicate the Greek raw is the better). The judge has made the assumption that this means they were heat treated. But HMF can be caused by storage time. And he doesn't seem to have considered that they may be blended with counterfeit honey.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The judge has made the assumption that this means they were heat treated. But HMF can be caused by storage time. And he doesn't seem to have considered that they may be blended with counterfeit honey.

Would he have if he was presented with that as evidence? Was he?

 

[warsaw_hive]

Would he have if he was presented with that as evidence? Was he?

He knew about hmf and storage time: paragraph 8 "a maximum level of hydroxymethylfurfural (HMF), a chemical formed over time and much more quickly if the honey is heated"

What he possibly doesn't know is (I think I have this correct) there is a surplus of honey on the market at the moment so the cheapest honey has most likely been stored for years.

No mention at all of counterfeit honey. We also don't have pollen analysis of the honeys.

 

[warsaw_hive]

I still don't understand how you can apply a process (i.e. heat) that changes the state of something (i.e. solid crystallised honey to liquid honey) and call it raw.

 

[Sutty]

I still don't understand how you can apply a process (i.e. heat) that changes the state of something (i.e. solid crystallised honey to liquid honey) and call it raw.

Though to be fair a snowball that melts to a puddle of water isn't "cooked".
The same would apply to a bottle of olive oil that becomes solid when cold but liquefies at room temperature.
I guess it's all about how much you can heat/process & still claim it's "raw".
Raw is a difficult word - applies to all sorts from sewage to emotion!

 

[warsaw_hive]

Though to be fair a snowball that melts to a puddle of water isn't "cooked".
The same would apply to a bottle of olive oil that becomes solid when cold but liquefies at room temperature.

But honey doesn't liquify at room temperature, you have to exceed it by some margin.

 

[warsaw_hive]

I guess it's all about how much you can heat/process & still claim it's "raw".

What the judge says:

The evidence shows that consumer perception is aligned with common sense: raw in this context takes the everyday meaning of 'unwrought', 'unprocessed', 'in its natural state'. But a precise definition that sorts honey into 'raw' and 'not raw' is less obvious. If, before your eyes, a beekeeper removes a frame from a hive and scrapes some honey onto your slice of toast, you would certainly agree that you were eating raw honey. The same applies if the beekeeper puts a kitchen sieve in the way so you don't eat bits of wax or dead bee, or even if it goes into a jar that you pick up a few days later. Beyond these obvious examples, it becomes less clear: instead of a sieve, a fine mesh is used; instead of a jar, the honey is kept in a large tin and warmed to fill a jar later on; now, there are 500 beekeepers and the kitchen sieve is replaced by a specialist mesh with a pump that can handle 50 litres a minute. Is the honey still raw?

55. To avoid continuing to labour the point, I look at Odysea's own honey. Its 'limited run, single source' honey described at paragraph 20 above would satisfy just about everyone as being raw honey, although even then the odd person might take exception to the centrifuge and the pump. The honey at paragraph 21 would probably still satisfy most people, being a blend of honey from different locations across Greece and having been re-warmed to a modest degree, but certainly not all.

 

[Sutty]

But honey doesn't liquify at room temperature, you have to exceed it by some margin.

It's all "application of heat" whether from 30C to 40C, -273C to -272C, or 100C to 200C.
I think a reasonable definition of "raw" would be "not processed to significantly change it's initial form" (do melting back to initial form possibly ok), and "not heated enough to cause denaturation of proteins including enzymes".
The problem the is agreeing what "significantly" means!

 

[enrico]

I rest my case your honour, thank you for at least saying that including the word raw is not an offence.

 

[WoodenBeam]

By the time a decision is made about raw, a new term will have come out the woodwork to market a simply delicious product anyhow so in my mind it’s all irrelevant. I’ll have also sold another load of Honey with no snake oil hokus pokus marketing baloney in the meantime to be enjoyed by some loyal customers

 

[Erichalfbee]

Trading standards told Lawrence to stop using the term. The battle isn’t over
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...e-unheated-non-pressure-filtered-honey.51968/

He’s doing a live chat about raw honey tonight if anybody is interested