Questions about managing honeybee diseases

[Beesnaturally]

Thank you. First it seemed smart, but I cannot see any fights in my hives. Perhaps ants and bees fight, and woodpecker and bears, but not ordinary diseases.

The 'fight' occurs through each generation. Those individuals who are stronger in any disease environment will go on to make a greater proportion of the next generation. Those weakest will perish, and add nothing to the next generation.

This is natural selection for the fittest strains. It _has_ to occur because...

...the disease organisms are evolving all the time too.

'Arms race'

Make sense?

Making each new generation _only_ from the best of the last is what husbandrymen have been doing for perhaps 3000 years. It is the defining feature of husbandry.

Now: if you create an environment in which the best and the worst make equal contributions to each succeeding generation, you prevent the adaptation process that allows the prey to stay ahead of the predator.

When you keep weak colonies alive and let their drones fly, that is precisely what you are doing.

That is absolutely standard, science and experience-based fact. If you want to argue with it be my guest. But you are not arguing with me. You are arguing with the most fundamental principle underlying all the life-sciences.

Go for it.

 

[Murox]

Your last words in post 78 71 were "That's it, I'm going to leave you in peace again now."

 

[Beesnaturally]

I don’t know? Perhaps I’m right?

Not only are the massed ranks of the entire life-science community in disagreement with you, but every breeder who ever lived, and anyone who knows what husbandry really means.

That's how right you are.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Your last words in post 78 were "That's it, I'm going to leave you in peace again now."

You are right! Stop them encouraging me!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Not only are the massed ranks of the entire life-science community in disagreement with you, but every breeder who ever lived, and anyone who knows what husbandry really means.


That's how right you are.

I meant your comment that beekeepers know nothing about animal husbandry

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...ng-honeybee-diseases.50447/page-5#post-770982

 

[Finman]

The 'fight' occurs through each generation. Those individuals who are stronger in any disease environment will go on to make a greater proportion of the next generation. Those weakest will perish, and add nothing to the next generation.

This is natural selection for the fittest strains. It _has_ to occur because...

...the disease organisms are evolving all the time too.

'Arms race'

Make sense?

Making each new generation _only_ from the best of the last is what husbandrymen have been doing for perhaps 3000 years. It is the defining feature of husbandry.

Now: if you create an environment in which the best and the worst make equal contributions to each succeeding generation, you prevent the adaptation process that allows the prey to stay ahead of the predator.

When you keep weak colonies alive and let their drones fly, that is precisely what you are doing.

That is absolutely standard, science and experience-based fact. If you want to argue with it be my guest. But you are not arguing with me. You are arguing with the most fundamental principle underlying all the life-sciences.

Go for it.

You are writing fairytale books. As I wrote, I have studied biology in Helsinki university. I know something about biology.

One basic mistake in your stories is that each generation does not have fighting situation against something. You are not only beekeeper on your genepool area.
You do not even know what is the local genepool, whete your virgins mate. And you do not know what is the role of your drones in crossings. Of course you can imagine all kind of things.

There are thousands of drones in the air, and they do not have any fighting there. No corps drop down from air. They only fly there.

And you decide what are fundamental sciences. And I know something about it. Is that your " there is no knowledge on overseas". Over 90% out of British beekeepers are 2-hive owners and you try to explain something about British bee biology and about bee genetics.

Life sciences.... you have very broad playground.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I meant your comment that beekeepers know nothing about animal husbandry

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...ng-honeybee-diseases.50447/page-5#post-770982

The most funamental meaning of 'husbandry' is 'the management of genetic flow through the generations.'

Get that right and you are a husbandryman, and maximising your chances of success. Get it wrong and you will be having to manage poor health continuously.

Does that sound like an item of common knowlege in modern beekeeping to you?

 

[Beesnaturally]

You are writing fairytale books. As I wrote, I have studied biology in Helsinki university. I know something about biology.

One basic mistake in your stories is that each generation does not have fighting situation against something. You are not only beekeeper on your genepool area.
You do not even know what is the local genepool, whete your virgins mate. And you do not know what is the role of your drones in crossings. Of course you can imagine all kind of things.

There are thousands of drones in the air, and they do not have any fighting there. No corps drop down from air. They only fly there.

And you decide what are fundamental sciences. And I know something about it. Is that your " there is no knowledge on overseas". Over 90% out of British beekeepers are 2-hive owners and you try to explain something about British bee biology and about bee genetics.

Life sciences.... you have very broad playground.

There is truth in what you say, but also ground to support what I have said. I have said that for many it is hard! Hard to understand, and hard to implement.

What a number of organisations advocate is that beekeepers in any given localilty club together to form breeding clubs.

I had to arrange to have 60 or more hives in a relatively remote area to be able to influence matings.

There are other things you can do. What you can't do is ignore that fact that continuous breeding is necessary for health.

 

[Murox]

The most funamental meaning of 'husbandry' is 'the management of genetic flow through the generations.'

Get that right and you are a husbandryman, and maximising your chances of success. Get it wrong and you will be having to manage poor health continuously.

Does that sound like an item of common knowlege in modern beekeeping to you?

The words post hoc ergo propter hoc and logical fallacy come to mind.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I really wished I'd learnt Spanish at school

 

[Finman]

Get that right and you are a husbandryman, and maximising your chances of success.

You teach succes. How much are your average honey yields?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I really wished I'd learnt Spanish at school

I always understood English could be understood by anyone if spoken loudly enough!

 

[Finman]

The most funamental meaning of 'husbandry' is 'the management of genetic flow through the generations.'

It is very very difficult. If the lenght of gene flow is 10000 years and my life is 100 years. And very few animal accept a human as a master.
Difficult to know to where the path goes, or does it go anywhere at all.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Difficult to know to where the path goes, or does it go anywhere at all.

Follow the yellow brick road - it's easier

 

[Finman]

Follow the yellow brick road - it's easier

We do not have such bricks.

 

[BugsInABox]

We do not have such bricks.

I was there.

 

[Finman]

View attachment 26500
I was there.

That is yellow paint. Red tiles are under that surface.

The building has been made to the honour of Russian Emperor. Finland was moved a while ago from Sweden to Russia because of Napoleon wars.

 

[Beesnaturally]

It is very very difficult. If the lenght of gene flow is 10000 years and my life is 100 years. And very few animal accept a human as a master.
Difficult to know to where the path goes, or does it go anywhere at all.

Luckily it it isn't (whatever a 'length of gene flow' is supposed to mean). In fact beekeepers have a distinct advantage over most other forms of animal husbandry: the genetic profile of a holding of 1000 colonies can be changed just by changing the queens - in a matter of a few weeks.

That doesn't help most of us all that much. But at least it is replacing incoherent information with real information. Which has to be a start.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The words post hoc ergo propter hoc and logical fallacy come to mind.

I write for those who can tell the difference between science and internet amateur beekeeper bs.

 

[Beesnaturally]

You teach succes. How much are your average honey yields?

You see (actually you don't but others here will) this was precisely the main point I made in my first post. To rehash for you:

To some the most important thing is the maximization of yields. To others it is the pursuit of long term bee heath.

(Health here means the ability to thrive without beekeeper support).

For those who have understood, be aware I'm not going to keep going round and round in circles with these people. You can't argue with people who can't, or dont want to, understand your case. I've tried, believe me.

For the uncertain, just because I stop posting and they don't, don't think that makes them right.

Remember, these people are 'queens' because they spout often. That's it.