questionable teaching or not?

[Ian123]

Like most thing that you claim to 'have read' or 'have been told' you are, once again wrong.

Oh come on single broods are much easier to shook swarm as well….beginners will find that much easier!

 

[Robinredcar]

Depends how broad your reading is.
Even a small extractor can be equipped with tangential screens where the frames are adequately supported. I’ve never blown a frame of any kind. ( husband has once and he is banned from access to the spinner)
As for handling, I’m an ancient small lady and I can manage. Husband lifts supers.

Oh yes but your average extractor won't fit 14x12 frames?
Hahaha hubby in the bad books, sorry I meant 14x12 frames seem awkward to handle more than difficult to move, ie sagging. I dont think I'd fancy moving many 14x12 supers .

 

[Robinredcar]

@Robinredcar what actual practical experience do you have in beekeeping and harvesting honey? I get the impression from your comments that most of your knowledge is from books or from others. That knowledge can be dangerous to accept without challenging why its appropriate. IMO there are a lot of 'experienced' beekeepers who use one system that they were taught years ago and wont accept that there are alternative options out there. same for literature.

Being prolific in terms of brood space required is not a prerequisite for queens I use. I just prefer to work with the bees rather than against them. I run a mixture of nationals and 14 x12 hives. If the national need more brood space, I add another box for the time they need it. If you have more than one hive (as is recommended to all new starters), you can always balance out brood between these hives, or make a nuc up for overwintering / sale. I have used brood and a half as a last resort, but don't like this configuration personally.

As your profile says that you have 2 hives, you should already have additional brood boxes / nucs to cover swarm control, so it shouldn't be an additional expense.

I'm only in my second season of having bees. I overwintered one of my colonies on brood and a half and one on single brood because that's the space I thought they needed. My 3rd colony is currently on single brood but as I said the very experienced bee keeper I got them from keeps them on brood and a half generally and as you said he is not concerned with how many brood Chambers they have just what they need much the same as In an ideal world I'd have mine on single national brood boxs but if they need more then so be it.
Untill recently I had 2 colonies with 3 supers each and a full spare hive with 3 supers, 2 full 6 frame nucs feeders for all. I was considering changing brood boxs for bigger as I don't like brood and a half. I havnt got more kit yet as I'm still undecided.
I totally agree, experience if far more efficient than learning but I stand by my statements with the single natinoal brood boxs, I have watched many beekeepers handling colonies with none prolific bees on single national brood. I obviously wasn't there to verify in person, but it's safe to say they are doing it.

 

[Robinredcar]

Like most thing that you claim to 'have read' or 'have been told' you are, once again wrong.

Lol give over pal, you've said they where wrong for culling a prolific queen imfact you said idiotic. Then you say you keep some colonies on single brood?! If its so mediocre, so idiotic to keep none prolific bees that don't need more than a single national brood why on earth do you keep some bees on single brood, why not breed it out of them for your great towers of brood boxs you keep saying are the eay forward?!

 

[PeaBee]

The other thing that confuses me about the wisdom of culling "prolific" queens is that queens genetics is just one factor in in a complex system of factors that will dictate the poor or prolific outcomes of the colony. A mediocre queen in the right conditions of flow and climate etc can need more space than a single national brood gives them. What will the "teacher" in the OP do then? kill all the queens except the most runty? I culled a couple of drone layers in splits last week, maybe I should have popped them in the association apiary as really none prolific queens.

 

[Robinredcar]

The other thing that confuses me about the wisdom of culling "prolific" queens is that queens genetics is just one factor in in a complex system of factors that will dictate the poor or prolific outcomes of the colony. A mediocre queen in the right conditions of flow and climate etc can need more space than a single national brood gives them. What will the "teacher" in the OP do then? kill all the queens except the most runty? I culled a couple of drone layers in splits last week, maybe I should have popped them in the association apiary as really none prolific queens.

The other thing that confuses me about the wisdom of culling "prolific" queens is that queens genetics is just one factor in in a complex system of factors that will dictate the poor or prolific outcomes of the colony. A mediocre queen in the right conditions of flow and climate etc can need more space than a single national brood gives them. What will the "teacher" in the OP do then? kill all the queens except the most runty? I culled a couple of drone layers in splits last week, maybe I should have popped them in the association apiary as really none prolific queens.

It would be great to hear the answer from the association in question, but I'd guess keeping the prolific queen would certainly not produce a none prolific colony? I'd also guess that at the highest necta flow in their area the queen's never need more than 1 natinoal brood box, otherwise why would they select from queens that don't need more?
If you think drone layers and none prolific queens are the same thing I'd probably watch some of Rodgers videos

 

[PeaBee]

It would be great to hear the answer from the association in question, but I'd guess keeping the prolific queen would certainly not produce a none prolific colony? I'd also guess that at the highest necta flow in their area the queen's never need more than 1 natinoal brood box, otherwise why would they select from queens that don't need more?
If you think drone layers and none prolific queens are the same thing I'd probably watch some of Rodgers videos

Lots of guessing there!
None of us were there so I suppose we are all just guessing what the motivations of the "teacher" were. But if it was genuinely culled for being to good, that is a bizarre mindset and also took potentially good genetics out of the local drone pool to be replaced by under performers.
Pre-empting and reacting to the spatial needs of the bees is part of beekeeping and beginners should be taught that. Instead they got shown to cull a good queen in favour of something weaker. Again its a guess but I can almost hear a "local expert" espousing their wisdom that bees should never fill more than a National box, before flogging them some of his special none expansive/non productive bees in hastily made up nucs, probably after a bit of Buckfast character assassination.
I think I am good on the video front, cheers. But there are some good ones on the tube that demonstrate how some beekeepers manage the brood space dynamically through the season in response to the bees needs. Doubt they star Roger though.

 

[B_north]

None of us were there so I suppose we are all just guessing what the motivations of the "teacher" were. But if it was genuinely culled for being to good, that is a bizarre mindset and also took potentially good genetics out of the local drone pool to be replaced by under performers.

Beekeepers cull good queens for all types of reasons in order to control how their apiaries function.

 

[Erichalfbee]

It would be great to hear the answer from the association in question

You could always ask him. He must be having a pretty big laugh ...over his breakfast muesli I gather, at the tangles we all have got ourselves in. Send him a PM

Oh yes but your average extractor won't fit 14x12 frames?

As much attention to buying your main extractor should be given as to choosing your hive format and bees.

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

I read this thread last night. Great! And 'tangled' too!

Ken and Dan Basterfield in the latest BeeCraft mention that some black bee adherents 'advise that a colony that expands beyond a single brood box cannot be native'. (There's more - see page 14.) All new to me, but while convenience and style of beekeeping may form part of the rationale behind the prolific queen culling mentioned at the start of this thread, I guess it's possible that there may be an element of striving for characteristics which are thought to be associated with AMM. (Trying to be measured here )

Earlier someone here wrote that the two sides will not see eye to eye. And I've heard it said that people cannot be reasoned out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. Which is fine. People base their decisions (and form their beliefs) not just on reason but on feeling too.

 

[Frizzaldo]

"the very experienced bee keeper I got them from"
This is always a red flag for me, when you are new to beekeeping, anyone who has a few hives will seem like a very experienced beekeeper, it doesn't mean they are the fountain of knowledge. He may be good and you can probably learn a lot from him but always question and challenge opinions.
Often times when you look back you'll realise many of them were spouting nonsense or rehashing the usual beekeeping myths.

I'm an Irish beekeeper using double commercial brood for blackish bees btw.
Once you get better at finding and marking your queens, splitting double broods becomes less daunting and the basis for many of your arguments will go away.

 

[Dodge]

I read this thread last night. Great! And 'tangled' too!

Ken and Dan Basterfield in the latest BeeCraft mention that some black bee adherents 'advise that a colony that expands beyond a single brood box cannot be native'. (There's more - see page 14.) All new to me, but while convenience and style of beekeeping may form part of the rationale behind the prolific queen culling mentioned at the start of this thread, I guess it's possible that there may be an element of striving for characteristics which are thought to be associated with AMM. (Trying to be measured here )

Earlier someone here wrote that the two sides will not see eye to eye. And I've heard it said that people cannot be reasoned out of a position that they didn't reason themselves into in the first place. Which is fine. People base their decisions (and form their beliefs) not just on reason but on feeling too.

I wonder if you have hit the nail on the head. Is this association one that is effectively BIBBA obsessed; they want as pure to AMM (British Black bee) as possible.

To me a branch appiary is a training appiary, it should teach best practice and have a good range of examples of different hives / methods as possible. I get having small colonies for beginners but beginners come back the following year and their hives may also be heading to brood half or double. Should a good branch not have a few larger colonies for teaching too rather than culling.

If a queen is too prolific or not AMM enough why do they not split her into a nuce and sell for branch proceeds.

 

[SWEET]

Interesting thread, guess they would not like my x3 brood honey monster hives I'm moving around various crops then ha.

DB nat works great for me; single size frame/box and many management options at hand. The super weight might be an issue for many but simply keep them on lower stands and max 2 supers. Regards moving DB boxes for inspections, zero need to go over each frame unless there are issues so again a null point and DB hives can be inspected in minutes.

I guess for the hobby beekeeper with a few hives in the garden, single box would work better but require far more attention (DB+ buys you time) and if you miss a swarm still left with a large amount of bees.

 

[Robinredcar]

Lots of guessing there!
None of us were there so I suppose we are all just guessing what the motivations of the "teacher" were. But if it was genuinely culled for being to good, that is a bizarre mindset and also took potentially good genetics out of the local drone pool to be replaced by under performers.
Pre-empting and reacting to the spatial needs of the bees is part of beekeeping and beginners should be taught that. Instead they got shown to cull a good queen in favour of something weaker. Again its a guess but I can almost hear a "local expert" espousing their wisdom that bees should never fill more than a National box, before flogging them some of his special none expansive/non productive bees in hastily made up nucs, probably after a bit of Buckfast character assassination.
I think I am good on the video front, cheers. But there are some good ones on the tube that demonstrate how some beekeepers manage the brood space dynamically through the season in response to the bees needs. Doubt they star Roger though.

Yea hence the guessing, if I was there and 100% sure I'd have said so, guessing you would to.
I think that's the problem what you see as a good queen is obviously not the traits he sees as a good queen, he probably culled instead of passing on for that reason you mentioned, he probably dosnt want to risk his none prolific queens mating with a drone from a prolific colony. Horses for courses again they obviously like none prolific bees and get what they want from them without needing prolific queens that's why they select for them.
I honestly don't understand why people buy buckfast bees, I think it's irresponsible if I'm honest.
Haha well you suggested a drone layer as none prolific so I couldn't resist recomeneding Roger

 

[Robinredcar]

You could always ask him. He must be having a pretty big laugh ...over his breakfast muesli I gather, at the tangles we all have got ourselves in. Send him a PM

As much attention to buying your main extractor should be given as to choosing your hive format and bees.

I would if I knew who we where talking about lol.
Oh I agree, I invested natinoal gear didn't really plan on changing, but like alot of things you've got to go with the flow and requirements change.

 

[Robinredcar]

"the very experienced bee keeper I got them from"
This is always a red flag for me, when you are new to beekeeping, anyone who has a few hives will seem like a very experienced beekeeper, it doesn't mean they are the fountain of knowledge. He may be good and you can probably learn a lot from him but always question and challenge opinions.
Often times when you look back you'll realise many of them were spouting nonsense or rehashing the usual beekeeping myths.

I'm an Irish beekeeper using double commercial brood for blackish bees btw.
Once you get better at finding and marking your queens, splitting double broods becomes less daunting and the basis for many of your arguments will go away.

Oh I agree, I had my bees before I met this guy I found him as before I got any bees I was keen on black bees, his group is listed on the bibba site as the closest. He had kindly offered his help and experience on several occasions with nothing in it for him.
Sorry I might not have explained very well, the man that bred my black bees dosnt have any colonies on single national brood that I'm aware of, he recommends mine will need atleast brood and a half. Just to be clear this bloke has kept bees a very long time and is very knowledgeable, I understand that will mean nothing coming from me to you but thought I should say it.
What part of Ireland are you in?
Again I agree you give the bees what you need, but my point is some bees are less prolific and don't need more than a natinoal brood box, mine do need more and I don't try shoehorn them into one box but I would prefer just one box and I see why people keep these types of bees.

 

[Robinredcar]

Interesting thread, guess they would not like my x3 brood honey monster hives I'm moving around various crops then ha.

DB nat works great for me; single size frame/box and many management options at hand. The super weight might be an issue for many but simply keep them on lower stands and max 2 supers. Regards moving DB boxes for inspections, zero need to go over each frame unless there are issues so again a null point and DB hives can be inspected in minutes.

I guess for the hobby beekeeper with a few hives in the garden, single box would work better but require far more attention (DB+ buys you time) and if you might a swarm still left with a large amount of bees.

I see your point, the single brood people I watched are or where commercial bees keepers.
I only have 3 hives and I do go through each frame on Weekley inspections, I can understand why you don't it sounds like your more commercial than hobby? For me I enjoy inspecting (I do now I have lovley placid bees anyway lol) but commercially it's not viable to inspect like that eh. They bloke who bred my new bees dosnt go through every hive every week and the speaker I seen at the association I just joined dosnt even use queen excluders on his colonies of black bees.

 

[holmbee]

Just amazed this thread is still going.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Just amazed this thread is still going.

Everybody wants the last word.

 

[SWEET]

I see your point, the single brood people I watched are or where commercial bees keepers.
I only have 3 hives and I do go through each frame on Weekley inspections, I can understand why you don't it sounds like your more commercial than hobby? For me I enjoy inspecting (I do now I have lovley placid bees anyway lol) but commercially it's not viable to inspect like that eh. They bloke who bred my new bees dosnt go through every hive every week and the speaker I seen at the association I just joined dosnt even use queen excluders on his colonies of black bees.

Yes commercial but run both singles and DB depending on what the bees are doing, some are happy on singles and produce lots of honey, some on DB and produce even more, some on DB produce less than the singles etc etc. If you have a few hundred hives you'll have to go over a % if you like it or not so that enjoyment is covered off. As soon as the first super is full you can remove QX ( and many do) but there are risks. Regards being viable, the less you mess with them the better regards running 2 or 2000, if you like watching them look into an OBB hive maybe even Bienenkugel, have fun.