questionable teaching or not?

[user 20297]

Everybody wants the last word.

Zyzzyva'

 

[user 20297]

I see your point, the single brood people I watched are or where commercial bees keepers.
I only have 3 hives and I do go through each frame on Weekley inspections, I can understand why you don't it sounds like your more commercial than hobby? For me I enjoy inspecting (I do now I have lovley placid bees anyway lol) but commercially it's not viable to inspect like that eh. They bloke who bred my new bees dosnt go through every hive every week and the speaker I seen at the association I just joined doesn't even use queen excluders on his colonies of black bees.

Even a non-prolific queen may decide that a chimney-shaped brood-nest suits her best. I have two colonies that aren't enormous, but which have three or four frames of brood centrally-placed in each of three boxes. Maybe the insistence on having non-prolific queens goes in tandem with the insistence on using a queen-excluder.

 

[Mint Bee]

Is this association one that is effectively BIBBA obsessed

One could say that.

to paraphrase Tubbs and Edward

these are local bees for local beekeepers; there's nothing for you here

 

[Robinredcar]

Yes commercial but run both singles and DB depending on what the bees are doing, some are happy on singles and produce lots of honey, some on DB and produce even more, some on DB produce less than the singles etc etc. If you have a few hundred hives you'll have to go over a % if you like it or not so that enjoyment is covered off. As soon as the first super is full you can remove QX ( and many do) but there are risks. Regards being viable, the less you mess with them the better regards running 2 or 2000, if you like watching them look into an OBB hive maybe even Bienenkugel, have fun.

Thanks that was kind of my point that some single broods can do well its not necessarily more brood more honey. Do you have full commercial hives or do you use national supers?
I think the bloke I was talking about with no QEs doesn't use them at all, he let's the queen lay where they want (I think he is big on Heather honey production, very interesting video on the bibba YouTube channel).
Oh sorry I should have said I don't just look through my hives for the enjoyment I do a weekly inspection for swarming, but I do enjoy looking at the hive. (My bees are on an allotment so trying to avoid swarms is probably more important to me than a more rural location).

 

[Robinredcar]

Even a non-prolific queen may decide that a chimney-shaped brood-nest suits her best. I have two colonies that aren't enormous, but which have three or four frames of brood centrally-placed in each of three boxes. Maybe the insistence on having non-prolific queens goes in tandem with the insistence on using a queen-excluder.

That's interesting, I think given the chance woth no queen excluder all queens would chimney the brood up the middle frames, id guess the more prolific would take up more frames in the same sized hive as a none prolific queen given the same space with no excluders?
I wonder if you didn't have them on multiple brood boxs if your two hives would utilise a single brood box?

 

[SWEET]

Do you have full commercial hives or do you use national supers?

National standard box for everything (all Poly).

^^ Ref - No QX and DB, give it a try and see what happens.

 

[user 20297]

That's interesting, I think given the chance woth no queen excluder all queens would chimney the brood up the middle frames, id guess the more prolific would take up more frames in the same sized hive as a none prolific queen given the same space with no excluders?
I wonder if you didn't have them on multiple brood boxs if your two hives would utilise a single brood box?

They would have to!
I also have the option of reshuffling them down into one box and shoving an excluder above them. But the bees are showing me what they prefer to do in the circumstances and I see no advantage to be gained by messing up their arrangements.

 

[Robinredcar]

National standard box for everything (all Poly).

^^ Ref - No QX and DB, give it a try and see what happens.

Oh sorry I thought you meant commercial brood box.
I've just used supers for extra brood space. I dont think I'll bother not using QE as one of the reasons I don't like more than one brood box is fear of loosing a queen .

 

[Robinredcar]

They would have to!
I also have the option of reshuffling them down into one box and shoving an excluder above them. But the bees are showing me what they prefer to do in the circumstances and I see no advantage to be gained by messing up their arrangements.

I spose just about all hive types are more for bee keepers than bees, id rather utilise the one brood box than use two. Last year I used one brood box then another on top as a super, I spose we both achieved the same outcome bees had enough space and loads of spare store frames.

 

[user 20297]

Yes

I spose just about all hive types are more for bee keepers than bees, id rather utilise the one brood box than use two. Last year I used one brood box then another on top as a super, I spose we both achieved the same outcome bees had enough space and loads of spare store frames.

The difference in approach is about letting the bees use the equipment (despite it being designed by and for beekeepers) in a manner that most closely ressembles their instinctive behaviour.

 

[Robinredcar]

Yes

The difference in approach is about letting the bees use the equipment despite it being designed by and for beekeepers) in a manner that most closely ressembles their instinctive behaviour.

Certainly, could be a reason why some people don't use queen excluders to. Have you tried putting all the suppers and brood boxs on with no queen excluder they could chimney right through that would be even closer to their natural behaviour?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I start off using QXs tgen when the bees start backfilling the brood nest I take them away and all the honey in the brood gets moved up. The honey in the super stops the queen going up anyway.

 

[user 20297]

Certainly, could be a reason why some people don't use queen excluders to. Have you tried putting all the suppers and brood boxs on with no queen excluder they could chimney right through that would be even closer to their natural behaviour?

You should read up about the Rose Hive Method. With the addition of some frills, bells and whistles, it's doing exactly that. Similarly to @Erichalfbee above,I initially started the season with a QX on most hives, and kept it there as long as the bees seemed to have enough space. That made it easier to find the queen when I had to find the queen. But once things really got going, I removed them.

I don't care what configuration of boxes and in what order they end up....the bees just recognise a box as space. When you have several hives and there's a mixture of frame sizes throughout them that have brood in them, you have all the flexibility you need for making up nucs or borrowing frames for other hives etc.

It sounds like the mentor of the originator of this thread wouldn't like that sort of business at all...sounds like maybe they don't really like beekeeping manipulations........the "funnest" bit!

 

[Robinredcar]

I start off using QXs tgen when the bees start backfilling the brood nest I take them away and all the honey in the brood gets moved up. The honey in the super stops the queen going up anyway.

What's the reasoning for doing it this way? I'm curious not having a go, I thought it would be easier for the bee keeper and the bees just using the excluder than them having to move stores? I also thought bees are reluctant to use cells for brood that where previously used for stores (not brood stores brood but stores then brood? I have no experience of it other than my bees backfilling the brood chamber for winter then reusing for brood in the spring when the stores where used.

 

[Robinredcar]

You should read up about the Rose Hive Method. With the addition of some frills, bells and whistles, it's doing exactly that. Similarly to @Erichalfbee above,I initially started the season with a QX on most hives, and kept it there as long as the bees seemed to have enough space. That made it easier to find the queen when I had to find the queen. But once things really got going, I removed them.

I don't care what configuration of boxes and in what order they end up....the bees just recognise a box as space. When you have several hives and there's a mixture of frame sizes throughout them that have brood in them, you have all the flexibility you need for making up nucs or borrowing frames for other hives etc.

It sounds like the mentor of the originator of this thread wouldn't like that sort of business at all...sounds like maybe they don't really like beekeeping manipulations........the "funnest" bit!

Ive read about the warren hive thats seems more natural but ive never actually seen one in the flesh.
Oh I don't know if it's who I think it is he certainly likes manipulations, and if all your hives are on the same frames it surely must be easier to manipulate than a mix and match?
I read alot of bee keepers saying they wish they'd stuck to one hive type. That makes sense to me to only having one kit to worry about.

 

[pargyle]

What's the reasoning for doing it this way? I'm curious not having a go, I thought it would be easier for the bee keeper and the bees just using the excluder than them having to move stores? I also thought bees are reluctant to use cells for brood that where previously used for stores (not brood stores brood but stores then brood? I have no experience of it other than my bees backfilling the brood chamber for winter then reusing for brood in the spring when the stores where used.

Theres; nothing wrong with not using queen excluders at all ... I've never used a queen excluder .. early in the season she might lay up a bit in the first super (I'm on 14 x 12) but prolific queens will go beyond that but she soon moves down into the brood box and the cells get cleaned after the brood emerges and get filled with honey. Works for me (and our Finnish member - something we do agree on).

 

[Robinredcar]

Theres; nothing wrong with not using queen excluders at all ... I've never used a queen excluder .. early in the season she might lay up a bit in the first super (I'm on 14 x 12) but prolific queens will go beyond that but she soon moves down into the brood box and the cells get cleaned after the brood emerges and get filled with honey. Works for me (and our Finnish member - something we do agree on).

Sorry I didn't say there was anything wrong with it just wondered what the reason for doing it was?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Sorry I didn't say there was anything wrong with it just wondered what the reason for doing it was?

Because my bees seem to shift stores better without one. This is important in a flow. I reckon they ventilate the hive better too

 

[SWEET]

@Rob - Some reasons I use them 100% of the time -

Wax moths; supers used purely for honey production can be stored wet and I've yet to have issues with moths, if the combs had brood the moths move in (try it). Drones, I like to keep them out of the supers. Speed, knowing the queen location means faster super processing and moving boxes around including removing the bees. They might reduce honey production, fixed by adding a few more hives. Brood config; quick glance and I'll know if the units are single or DB (all the boxes are the same size).

 

[Robinredcar]

Because my bees seem to shift stores better without one. This is important in a flow. I reckon they ventilate the hive better too

I thought if you added suppers in good time they would just store there instead of the brood, I can see it would definatly be easier for the bees to move without a QE though.