questionable teaching or not?

[Robinredcar]

I'm getting a feeling this is a circular argument.

Lol yes I agree it's getting boring, but I genuinely want to know why he thinks it's mediocre. From what I've seen single natinaol brood colonies can produce large crops of honey so I can't understand why the bloke thinks it's mediocre.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

single brood colonies can bring in loads of honey (I know, I have plenty) but they also need to produce loads of bees, you won't achieve it with just three supers, you need a good prolific queen.
Culling a good queen to be replaced by a 'less prolific' one is just idiocy

 

[ericbeaumont]

Langstroth is said to have based his on the dimensions of a case of champagne.

Story I heard was that Langstroth had a delivery of stained glass packed in timber of a convenient size. Either way, I doubt that the size of any box has been the result of the considered linking of nest and box size, more a case of that seems about right.

 

[Erichalfbee]

no it's not - it's about culling productive bees in favour of mediocre ones

Yes to fit a National box.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yea I wasn't over keen on 14x14, do like the look of long lugs but extracting seems to be a nightmare if your using as a super to draw comb?

It’s not a nightmare. You get an extractor to fit the job right from the beginning. It’s a definite advantage to be able to spin brood combs

 

[Robinredcar]

single brood colonies can bring in loads of honey (I know, I have plenty) but they also need to produce loads of bees, you won't achieve it with just three supers, you need a good prolific queen.
Culling a good queen to be replaced by a 'less prolific' one is just idiocy

I was under the impression that you never use single brood.
My understanding of the single brood was that they can produce more than enough bees to fill supers and the less prolific queens regulate their laying to suit the inviorment/flow better buy reducing and expanding when necessary. All that I've seen on colonies like Roger Pattersons and some speakers from Ireland seem to produce very good honey crops on single natinoal brood colonies.
I imagine in their eyes id's not idiocy because they are getting the crops they want without multiple brood chambers, it would be great to hear from who this post was about and compare yields/what they feed in the winter though.

 

[ericbeaumont]

why or what was modified

The box base rim was given a rebate; two edges of the original un-rebated box base are about 50mm wide and stick to top bars below.

The Modified locking bars replaced the minimal scalloped hand-holds in the box walls. Original Nationals have to be lifted almost by finger-tips, which is not much fun when heavy.

We work with some unmodified EH Taylor equipment and curse the design drawbacks, though the timber itself is still serviceable after 70 years.

 

[Robinredcar]

It’s not a nightmare. You get an extractor to fit the job right from the beginning. It’s a definite advantage to be able to spin brood combs

I thought the spinners where not as easy to obtain and more expensive, I read the 14x12 have a habbit of blowing out much more than even a standard national brood comb.
Oh without a doubt, I used my spare brood boxs as supers to draw and produce food combs. I thought about just having brood Chambers as supers untill I lifted one that wasn't even full

 

[Newbeeneil]

I'm getting a feeling this is a circular argument.

Well spotted John!

 

[Murox]

I thought the spinners where not as easy to obtain and more expensive, I read the 14x12 have a habbit of blowing out much more than even a standard national brood comb.

Depends on what you consider expensive when you buy a "special tool" - I think most extractors are overpriced, especially the chinese knockoffs of good ones.
You may have read 14x12 blow out more, however it's not my experience; probably depends on how fast you go and the way you do it.

 

[Wilco]

I was under the impression that you never use single brood.
My understanding of the single brood was that they can produce more than enough bees to fill supers and the less prolific queens regulate their laying to suit the inviorment/flow better buy reducing and expanding when necessary. All that I've seen on colonies like Roger Pattersons and some speakers from Ireland seem to produce very good honey crops on single natinoal brood colonies.
I imagine in their eyes id's not idiocy because they are getting the crops they want without multiple brood chambers, it would be great to hear from who this post was about and compare yields/what they feed in the winter though.

I think the key here is 'what is a good honey crop'. The national average, last I heard, was around 30lbs per hive (I'd estimate this at 1.5 supers if National). Obviously some will be better, some will be worse.

For bee farmers, this figure is usually significantly higher. As a student on placement with the NBU I heard figures of 100+lbs a hive being mentioned as not unusual for UK bee farmers.

As I understand it, bee farmers are more likely to have larger colonies than hobbyists although there will be other factors too.

An observation, not aimed at anyone - In my experience, for anything in life where the comparison can be drawn, there are good and bad hobbyists and good and bad professionals. A good hobbyist is often better than a good professional. However the average professional is usually better than the average hobbyist.

 

[Murox]

Wow Wilco those figures !! In the early seventies I was told that in a good year one hive could produce around 112 lbs. I recall never achieving that but regularly achieved over 70 lbs plus some comb honey. Mind you I lived in coastal essex then and the forage was good and the weather kind.

 

[Wilco]

Wow Wilco those figures !! In the early seventies I was told that in a good year one hive could produce around 112 lbs. I recall never achieving that but regularly achieved over 70 lbs plus some comb honey. Mind you I lived in coastal essex then and the forage was good and the weather kind.

Yes, the average figure is really sobering. This was what I was told when on placement and obviously there is room for me misremembering but the comparison is crazy.

 

[Robinredcar]

The box base rim was given a rebate; two edges of the original un-rebated box base are about 50mm wide and stick to top bars below.

The Modified locking bars replaced the minimal scalloped hand-holds in the box walls. Original Nationals have to be lifted almost by finger-tips, which is not much fun when heavy.

We work with some unmodified EH Taylor equipment and curse the design drawbacks, though the timber itself is still serviceable after 70 years.

It always amazes me how long some of the hives have survived!
Haha I done envey trying to lift a box with your fingertips . I seen someone had added bars to the side of some flat sided nationals I'm guessing they must be old ones like yours, they certainly looked very old.
I handled a Smith hive not so long back I think I much pre

Depends on what you consider expensive when you buy a "special tool" - I think most extractors are overpriced, especially the chinese knockoffs of good ones.
You may have read 14x12 blow out more, however it's not my experience; probably depends on how fast you go and the way you do it.

Expensive relative to a spinner that will do the same job but on natinoal or langstroth frames.
Agree they are all abit overpriced for what they are.
I've never even handled a 14x12 to be fair I was just going off what I've read. 14x12 would probably be the easiest conversion for what I currently have though.

 

[Robinredcar]

I think the key here is 'what is a good honey crop'. The national average, last I heard, was around 30lbs per hive (I'd estimate this at 1.5 supers if National). Obviously some will be better, some will be worse.

For bee farmers, this figure is usually significantly higher. As a student on placement with the NBU I heard figures of 100+lbs a hive being mentioned as not unusual for UK bee farmers.

As I understand it, bee farmers are more likely to have larger colonies than hobbyists although there will be other factors too.

An observation, not aimed at anyone - In my experience, for anything in life where the comparison can be drawn, there are good and bad hobbyists and good and bad professionals. A good hobbyist is often better than a good professional. However the average professional is usually better than the average hobbyist.

I completely agree with that as with alot of things in life sometimes a hobby can mean perfection and alot of dedication. I'd have to look but I'm sure I'd read some of the single brood colonies are reaching above 30lb and some 100lb, like you say the forage is a big factor and I'm a big believer in horses for courses and even in characteristics within a subspecies, say an AMM colony selected for Heather production will probably not perform as well as a AMM colony for **** production and vise versa

 

[madasafish]

The UK yield figures remember include many treatment free beekeepers. Virtually none appear to be open about their yield figures but I recall a talk by TF semi commercials in Wales. I worked out the average yield was c 30 lbs per hive from their figures.

Yields of course depend on where you live and the weather and local forage.
Some 30 miles from here Beekeepers in Manchester and Cheshire quote averages over 60 or 70 lbs. My long term average is just over 50 but we have zero arable land and late frosts most years and ambient temperatures are 2-3C less than 10 miles away in Cheshire .
So yields must be taken in context of local conditions - boxes and type of bees play their part but there are LOTS of variables.

Most hobby beekeepers appear happy with an average of c 30lbs.

 

[drex]

I much prefer knowledge gained from what I have experienced to that from what I have read. Do not get me wrong, I have a large collection of beekeeping books, which I have read. However I find that I never really know something until experienced. I often think , " so that's what it all means"

 

[Erichalfbee]

I thought the spinners where not as easy to obtain and more expensive, I read the 14x12 have a habbit of blowing out much more than even a standard national brood comb.

Depends how broad your reading is.
Even a small extractor can be equipped with tangential screens where the frames are adequately supported. I’ve never blown a frame of any kind. ( husband has once and he is banned from access to the spinner)
As for handling, I’m an ancient small lady and I can manage. Husband lifts supers.

 

[Mint Bee]

@Robinredcar what actual practical experience do you have in beekeeping and harvesting honey? I get the impression from your comments that most of your knowledge is from books or from others. That knowledge can be dangerous to accept without challenging why its appropriate. IMO there are a lot of 'experienced' beekeepers who use one system that they were taught years ago and wont accept that there are alternative options out there. same for literature.

Being prolific in terms of brood space required is not a prerequisite for queens I use. I just prefer to work with the bees rather than against them. I run a mixture of nationals and 14 x12 hives. If the national need more brood space, I add another box for the time they need it. If you have more than one hive (as is recommended to all new starters), you can always balance out brood between these hives, or make a nuc up for overwintering / sale. I have used brood and a half as a last resort, but don't like this configuration personally.

As your profile says that you have 2 hives, you should already have additional brood boxes / nucs to cover swarm control, so it shouldn't be an additional expense.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was under the impression that you never use single brood

Like most thing that you claim to 'have read' or 'have been told' you are, once again wrong.