Oxalic - probably a silly question . . .

[Tony M]

As I understand it, oxalic acid is a fairly unpleasant substance, so gloves, eye protection and overalls are recommended, and possibly a fume mask as well.

If I sublimate the stuff, I understand that I end up with micro-crystals of oxalic all over the contents of the hive - bees, frames, walls, everywhere.

When I (eventually) start working in the hive in the spring, are these micro-crystals still there - and what are the implications arising from their presence, particularly when there's a realistic chance that my skin is going to come into contact with the various hive parts?

I could assume, since I haven't seen any dire warnings (here or elsewhere), that there is no problem - but I thought I would ask!

Cheers,

Tony

 

[For want of a better word]

Bees will have cleared it out.... I wonder about parts not accessible to the bees
Most tend to wear nitrile or similar very thin gloves when handling hives / colonies... as a bio~security measure.
Given the minute quantities involved probably not a problem.

PP3 mask, goggles and thick groves ( OA vaporisers get very hot!) essential.
Probably more harmful chemicals sold in childrens chemistry sets!

yeghes da

 

[madasafish]

I treated my hives in September and two weeks later had a BI sample my honey with comb and send it to VMD for analysis.

No comments made on OA presence when results came in November.

When I treated in Feb 2016,no evidence of OA on first inspections in April.

The quantities we are talking of ( 2g per hive) will leave a microscopic amount when you consider the internal surface area of a hive complete with two sides of combs.I cannot be bothered to work out the weight of OA per sq mm of the internal hive +combs area but we are talking mg per mm squared.

Easy for bees to clean off...

 

[masterBK]

Probably more harmful chemicals sold in childrens chemistry sets!

Really!! I very much doubt this

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0529.html

I wonder how many beekeepers using it regularly year after year with no apparent ill effects end up a decade later with kidney damage or cardiovascular problems?
Time will tell.

They used to think Asbestos was fairly harmless and now years later........

 

[Tony M]

Thanks for the input - I'll be keeping my Marigolds on, I think!

The NIOSH data sheet is rather scary, taken at face value - but, as noted, we're really talking about very tiny quantities per hive (even for those who vape every 5 days till the mite fall goes down!).

I see, from the sheet, that it sublimates at 157 degrees, but melts (decomposes) at 189.5 degrees. I suppose, at the sort of quantities we're likely to use, it will all sublimate (thus all be gone where we want it) before the vaporiser gets hot enough to cause it to decompose and turn into other substances.

I need to stop "thinking", I suspect!

Cheers,

Tony

 

[Hivemaker.]

I suppose, at the sort of quantities we're likely to use, it will all sublimate (thus all be gone where we want it) before the vaporiser gets hot enough to cause it to decompose and turn into other substances.

It will, would not be easy to get it to decompose unless using some kind of pressurized heating container.

 

[Tony M]

Thanks for that - much appreciated!

Tony

 

[Eyeman]

When I (eventually) start working in the hive in the spring, are these micro-crystals still there -

Bees remove the crystals. Their rate of removal depends on how active they are. They are certainly to have been removed come first inspection in spring.

When Sublimating take care that OA dust will settle on your clothing. I therefore take my bee suit off and shake it / dust it down before removing my mask. If you don't do this you risk getting some OA dust in the air which you can breath and irritate your nose/throat but hopefully not you lungs.

 

[BernardBlack]

So, gloves and mask for the oxalic acid treatment? Wash hands after use. Is that sufficient?

I'm treating mine tomorrow.

 

[rdmw]

Oxalic acid in its gaseous form if deadly if inhaled. There have been documented deaths from this. In it's solid form it is harmless and occurs in various foodstuffs for example rhubarb. I think it is important to wear a respirator and stand upwind a good distance away, and to ensure there are no bystanders or pets.


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[Erichalfbee]

So, gloves and mask for the oxalic acid treatment? Wash hands after use. Is that sufficient?

I'm treating mine tomorrow.

Stand upwind
Let the hot iron cool inside the hive (or under if you've put it there) for a minute or two before you withdraw it. If you are treating more than one hive cool the thing by dunking it in a pail of water before you load it again. (I say this because in LASI's video, they don't)

 

[Hebeegeebee]

It worries me that with oxalic acid vaping apparently occurring frequently now, sooner or later someone will be harmed by inhalation or other means. If it's the beekeeper, then maybe it's his or her own stupid fault. But it could be the dog, or ..... the kids. (Kids, go outside and get some fresh air and see Dad - he's playing with his bees again).

Here's a little FUN bit from the NIOSH page that Master BK highlighted:-

Skin : Redness, skin burns. Pain. Blisters.
Eyes : Redness. Pain. Loss of vision. Severe deep burns.

A business would carry out a risk assessment and have safe working practices for a potentially dangerous job.

 

[REDWOOD]

And then we have bleaches and oven cleaners on the bottom shelves in the supermarkets

 

[Hivemaker.]

And then we have bleaches and oven cleaners on the bottom shelves in the supermarkets

......and..

London breaches annual air pollution limit for 2017 in just five days

NO2 pollution, which is produced largely by diesel vehicles, causes 5,900 early deaths every year in London.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ir-pollution-limit-for-2017-in-just-five-days

 

[Hebeegeebee]

We do. We don't vapourise them though. Just wanted to highlight the need to be careful and think of the consequences....

And our H&S bloke at work wanted to do a risk assessment and a procedure on the dishwasher tablets for cleaning our mugs each day! (Somewhat over the top - but he saw the little cross on the packaging and got excited!).

 

[BernardBlack]

Stand upwind
Let the hot iron cool inside the hive (or under if you've put it there) for a minute or two before you withdraw it. If you are treating more than one hive cool the thing by dunking it in a pail of water before you load it again. (I say this because in LASI's video, they don't)

I'm doing the syringe thing though, not that fumigating malarky.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

It worries me that with oxalic acid vaping apparently occurring frequently now, sooner or later someone will be harmed by inhalation or other means. If it's the beekeeper, then maybe it's his or her own stupid fault. But it could be the dog, or ..... the kids. (Kids, go outside and get some fresh air and see Dad - he's playing with his bees again).

Here's a little FUN bit from the NIOSH page that Master BK highlighted:-

Skin : Redness, skin burns. Pain. Blisters.
Eyes : Redness. Pain. Loss of vision. Severe deep burns.

A business would carry out a risk assessment and have safe working practices for a potentially dangerous job.

Take nebosh claims with a pinch of salt (oh wait, that might be another hazard). They write the stuff partly to frighten people. Those of us who were born in the 1940s have encountered most of the stuff that's suddenly become a deadly menace. We could buy hydrochloric acid to make solder flux by stripping the zinc jacket off old torch batteries and putting the zinc into the acid. Those who wanted to could put a balloon over the neck of the reaction bottle to inflate with hydrogen so it would rise up out of sight when released. Sulphuric or virtually any other acid could be obtained from the chemists shop to use in chemistry sets/experiments. All part of the growing up and learning process.
I'm not saying throwing OA into someone's face is not going to cause serious damage but the use of brain for thinking and behaving sensibly rather than keeping ears apart isn't too hard with a bit of practice.
For what it's worth even a tiny bit of vapour/dust out in the open air is readily noticeable and standing upwind is the first thing sublimator users should practice.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

We do. We don't vapourise them though. Just wanted to highlight the need to be careful and think of the consequences....

And our H&S bloke at work wanted to do a risk assessment and a procedure on the dishwasher tablets for cleaning our mugs each day! (Somewhat over the top - but he saw the little cross on the packaging and got excited!).

They do that you know - seems to be part of the training for h&s appointees.

 

[madasafish]

Anyone who starts up a diesel car in a garage ,drives it out, and then goes back inside the garage again is shortening their lung lifespan by inhaling micro particles (and oxides of Nitrogen) from diesel fumes... exacerbated when the engine is cold..

Strangely enough, no-one warns you.

 

[rdmw]

http://m.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/33537 recent research shows sublimation superior to trickling


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