Oxalic Acid help with maths please?

[gavin]

I have a feeling that the water in both Scotland and Finland is soft, so you might be on your own there.

 

[oliver90owner]

I have a feeling that the water in both Scotland and Finland is soft

Nah, I reckon a lot of it in Finland is hard at the moment. Or is ice not water?

 

[gavin]

 

[Finman]

I have a feeling that the water in both Scotland and Finland is soft, so you might be on your own there.

In Helsinki water dH is 3 (hardiness)

 

[Finman]

I have a feeling that the water in both Scotland and Finland is soft

Nah, I reckon a lot of it in Finland is hard at the moment. Or is ice not water?

again you forgot your pills
.

 

[gavin]

In Helsinki water dH is 3 (hardiness)

Which seems to translate as 'very soft'?

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

 

[alanf]

Bit late for most i presume but what about the issue of what water to use ie tap vs distilled/demineralised since very hard water will cause oxalate precipitates which will presumably reduce the efficacy.

True.

My back of envelope calculation makes 3.2% oxalic by weight around 500 millimolar. According to the water suppliers here our water hardness is about 30 millimolar. If all the available ions chelate to oxylate that is reducing the effectiveness 6%. I could increase the oxalic to 7.95g in 100ml tap water plus 100g sugar. Or I can use some of the battery top up water that I have in the garage which would be preferable because it does not rely on water company estimates.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

True.

My back of envelope calculation makes 3.2% oxalic by weight around 500 millimolar. According to the water suppliers here our water hardness is about 30 millimolar. If all the available ions chelate to oxylate that is reducing the effectiveness 6%. I could increase the oxalic to 7.95g in 100ml tap water plus 100g sugar. Or I can use some of the battery top up water that I have in the garage which would be preferable because it does not rely on water company estimates.

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, can we guess that the original 3.2% recommendation was measured with tap water therefore you would (I think!) have to decrease the oxalic if using distilled?

 

[oliver90owner]

As most hardness in the UK will likely be 'temporary' and not 'permanent', might I suggest water previously boiled in a kettle or saucepan will certainly diminish any 'precipitation of calcium oxalate' problem to close to zero.

There may be a small issue with magnesium oxalate (even though it is fairly soluble in water) in the acid conditions, but I doubt it would matter for most.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

Given that the various publications purport to be scientific studies then i would guess that de-ionised water was used (also since Nanetti is italian and there supermarkets have loads of deionised water - for ironing etc - along with neat alcohol - for preserving).

 

[Finman]

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, can we guess that the original 3.2% recommendation was measured with tap water therefore you would (I think!) have to decrease the oxalic if using distilled?

OH BOY! Some one say something and you are going again your own science even if you do not know nothing.

You have trickling on your Isle 7 years. Have your heard that it does not work. You ra again the first who find that it must be distilled water!

You make your calculations even if they has been made 10 years ago by the guys. Who really know what to do.

Loooooook aaaat the European map. Which coutry occur on chalcareous soil. Switzerland? It uses the mildest OA.

If the distilled or not, the researchers surely would mention it if it has meaning.
The learder of the group is a beekeeping professor. You think that you are smarter?

You just take a risk to deliver wrong information in the serious bee disease issue where you do are not valid at all.
.

 

[alanf]

At the risk of exposing my ignorance, can we guess that the original 3.2% recommendation was measured with tap water therefore you would (I think!) have to decrease the oxalic if using distilled?

Hard to do 'not entirely serious' without a tone of voice. I read drstitsons suggestion with the same tone as his suggestion on another thread that chirality might affect the side of the hive varroa infect.

Any scientific study uses distilled water. The Italian prepared solutions list distilled water on the label. Using hard water from the tap is far too inconsistent, it even varies by season in many places. Reproducible results need consistency, distilled is what you use. Deionized is a cheaper approximation available in any car accessory shop or larger supermarkets. It's what I'd use for anything up to a litre or two.

 

[gavin]

Or rain water if you are in a hard water area and are concerned about the small loss of acid to calcium oxalate.

 

[drstitson]

My distilled comment was entirely serious. It was raised on the italian forum recently and is mentioned in randy oliver article: (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/).

NB even the italians manage to get out to 14 pages (204 posts) on OA % and sublimation vs dribbling:

http://apicoltura.mastertopforum.net/14-vt44.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

FYI also use distilled in my automatic hatching incubators as the humidity controllers tend to get furred up otherwise.

 

[Finman]

My distilled comment was entirely serious. It was raised on the italian forum recently and is mentioned in randy oliver article: (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/).

recently forum....

yes but......... randy Oliwer have done not a bit science. His first article has been bublished 2006.

Trickling has been used 12 years. Italian Nanetti invented it 15 years ago. The researchers and the inventor does not say in recipes "distilled water". it is only water and the most part of Europe has same kind of calcareous soil like in UK.

Do you understand the meaning "used by industry 12 years". Some have thousands of hives. It is something else than "recently in forum".
............
By the way. I tried to look what is hardness of London tap water. I may read the info "London water is safe to drink".

 

[Finman]

Or rain water if you are in a hard water area and are concerned about the small loss of acid to calcium oxalate.

yes, rainwater is "light" but it depends what stuff you have on roof.

i measured the rainwater pH from my cottage roof. I was surprised. It was 8. It is same as tap water in Helsinki.

Reason is that I have a fire place and ash goes onto roof.

.

 

[Finman]

.
But if you want to use rainwater, is not a big job to get it half litre.
Keep some dish in the rain and you get it. Roof water is far from pure.

 

[For want of a better word]

My distilled comment was entirely serious. It was raised on the italian forum recently and is mentioned in randy oliver article: (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/the-learning-curve-part-3-the-natural-miticides/).

NB even the italians manage to get out to 14 pages (204 posts) on OA % and sublimation vs dribbling:

http://apicoltura.mastertopforum.net/14-vt44.html?postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=195

FYI also use distilled in my automatic hatching incubators as the humidity controllers tend to get furred up otherwise.

What was the conclusion?
OA trickled vs OA vaporised that is?????

( not being able to read Itialian... sold my Ducati Darmah because I could not understand the workshop manual.. and the electrics were not up to UK climate!)

 

[Lance Hutchings]

I took the easy option and bought the pay**s ready mixed Oa to the right concentration

Probably more expensive but hopefully save any mistakes

 

[drstitson]

"What was the conclusion?"

HAHAHAHA!

How does the saying go?

"ask 5 apicolturi and get 6 different answers"

and they don't have the benefit of the wisdom of Finman (no offence intended).