Oxalic Acid help with maths please?

[Hivemaker.]

PH said Keep it simple. for the sake of peoples sanity can we have not so many different answers please.

Refer to post six for the best advice as to what to do,and a unique link to the action replay.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have used the 6% in the past and was shocked, and believe me it takes a LOT to shock me, at the reaction of the bees.

When I read that it is now recommended to be 3.2% I thought I had the answer as that is a considerable reduction in the strength.

I see the confusion is setting in yet again from the various experts on this so I am throwing in the towel here and chucking the stuff out and making up a fresh batch to be safe.

I would rather waste some money and be safe than be tight and confused.

Thanks all.

PH

 

[susbees]

Working on it dp4...it's knowing where the Italians got their concentration from that's the problem as there seems to be no point being a scientist if you don't read Italian :S

And PH I agree....the fact that solutions too strong for the UK climate are being sold is verging on the cr*m**al

 

[Finman]

AAAAAAHHHHHHHHRRRRRRGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!

PH said Keep it simple. for the sake of peoples sanity can we have not so many different answers please.
.

It is simple but I cannot understand why folks create their own ideas in that!

In my country no one regret that trickling is complex. Just do it like wiser say. No need for home made engineering..


.

 

[dickndoris]

I have used the 6% in the past and was shocked, and believe me it takes a LOT to shock me, at the reaction of the bees.

When I read that it is now recommended to be 3.2% I thought I had the answer as that is a considerable reduction in the strength.

I see the confusion is setting in yet again from the various experts on this so I am throwing in the towel here and chucking the stuff out and making up a fresh batch to be safe.

I would rather waste some money and be safe than be tight and confused.

Thanks all.

PH

 

[Finman]

100g original + 88g water.

rubbish. What original. Whose original?

88 g sugar gives 47% syrup and it has no practical meaning compared with 50%.


Original ?. things have changed during severa testing years and folks has written too old papers.

But that small differences get only two hive owner's calculator.

 

[susbees]

I believe the solution sold as 6 % OA does not mean 6 g/100 ml anhydrous OA solution but rather 6 g of OA dihydrate dissolved in 100 ml syrup.

If this is correct then Gavin's calculation will be more or less correct.

[Our bottle has ingredients:4.5g oxalic acid, 60g sugar, water up to 100ml which is already 1:1 syrup and a "simple" calculation. The weak syrup stronger solution from Maisemore and Paynes has two variables to be changed which makes it much harder].

Looking at the Italian website for our 4.5% bottle they say "oxalic acid" for the crystals too so confusion is guaranteed as that is obviously the dihydrate....giving a 71.4% difference in the amount of oxalic acid in any calculations.

 

[Hivemaker.]

 

[Finman]

If this is correct then Gavin's calculation will be more or less correct.
.

here is not needed Gavin's calculations because varroa group made to each country the calculations. north Europe, Switzerland has mildest 2,8% and Italy has strongest 4,2%.

Hivemaker has written stiff advice to forum years ago.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=20

I have not seen not a single correct calculation made by Gavin.

 

[Finman]

And stop laughing you old fart!

 

[jimbeekeeper]

I would rather waste some money and be safe than be tight and confused.

Even I would have just binned the 6% stuff and bought some OA powered and make it up myself.

 

[MandF]

What is the range of "safe" recommended OA concentrations?

I plan to make up the 3.2% solution, but I dont have uber accurate scales which can do 0.5g, but I figure whether I get 7g or 8g OA (for 100g sugar & water) it is going to be within the "safe" range.

I ask this because I am not sure why there is the desire to get exactly 3.2%, if 6% is too much, adding the same volume of liquid will give you 3% (within range?), slightly less will increase the %.

Also, I dont understand the concern with the syrup concentration, at the moment its 30%, worst case scenario, if it remains at 30%, will it really make much difference in the efficacy of the treatment?

Practically, make up a winter feed 2:1 sugar syrup, add slightly less that the existing volume, and you should be safely in the "safe" zone of OA concentration and syrup %?

In other words, this isnt an exact science anyway, so Im not sure why the answer is necessarily so scientific or complicated?

 

[Finman]

.10 years ago....


Tests 1998/99 had shown that bees do not stand quite well 6 g oxalic acid in 100 g 1:1 syrup.....

further tests were made 99/2000

30 g in 1:1 syrup
37 ....
45....
45 g in 1:2 syrup

 

[chipper]

Having read up all I could find on respective strengths of Oxalic acid treatments all over Europe and the reasons for the differing strengths and their respective effects on the longevity of the treated bees. I decided on " homemade " 4.5% solution.
I ve used this for the past 3 winters and the bees are fine with it.
Colonies suffer no ill effects and I have strong colonies ready for the Spring flow.
I do nt monitor for mite drop but treat with Apiguard as early in the Autumn as I can.
I thought the climate here in South Devon is more like Italy than Switzerland.....!

 

[jimbeekeeper]

I plan to make up the 3.2% solution, but I dont have uber accurate scales which can do 0.5g, but I figure whether I get 7g or 8g OA (for 100g sugar & water) it is going to be within the "safe" range.

I would say get it to read 7g then a touch more. Yes you can buy quite cheap (£10 ish) scale to do 0.0 or 0.00, but then as I said above, this accuracy then goes out the window unless you follow up with the appropriative accuracy when dispensing the solution onto the bees.

In my work I deal in ppm and ppb, 4 and 6 dp, in a fully temperature controlled environment but then also work in T/hr, m3/s, +/- 1000t etc, you have to be realistic.

 

[boca]

Also, I dont understand the concern with the syrup concentration, at the moment its 30%, worst case scenario, if it remains at 30%, will it really make much difference in the efficacy of the treatment

On the slide I posted above the 30% sugar gives only 70 % mite mortaliy.

poco zucchero = scarsa efficacia in English little sugar = low effectiveness

In other words, this isnt an exact science anyway, so Im not sure why the answer is necessarily so scientific or complicated?

It is impossible to give an accurate and simple answer to the question, because we do not know what is in the product we start with.
It can be either:
1. 6 g of of pure OA in 100 ml syrup or
2. 6 g of OA dihydrate in 100 ml syrup.

It is the producer fault, because it indicates the content ambiguously.

To be pragmatic it does not make much difference. The 3 - 4 % (w/v) solution can be considered effective and not dangerous to bees.

 

[peteinwilts]

It is the producer fault, because it indicates the content ambiguously.

the suppliers are also to blame...

a 'helpful' sheet from the unmentionable association, linked to one of the main suppliers says:-

Oxalic Acid from Endolapi SRL (Italy) which
is 6% of oxalic acid in a 30% sugar solution

Oxuvar from Andermatt. Which is a 3%
solution of oxalic acid supplied with sugar
to make up the desired concentration for
application to the colony.

The helpful advice sheet produced by the unmentionable association is little more helpful than this, leaving purchasers of the above made up liquids to choose what to buy with no other guide.

How would a newbie, or an experienced beekeeper know which to use... there are no recomendations that the former product should be watered down for the British market.

Time for a sticky? once a decision is made what is definitely right!!...

with different percentages for different countries, I presume the climate makes the differences. If so, for instance in the UK climate, should the bees be treated with a certain percentage if the temperature is -1C and a different strength at 10C??

 

[MandF]

The 3 - 4 % (w/v) solution can be considered effective and not dangerous to bees.

Which was my point, plus a worst case scenario of 70% effectiveness (with the 30% sugar solution) is still better than 0% if not treating.

With regards to the OP, for the sake of clarity, is my assertion that a 2:1 syrup solution added at slightly less volume of the original 6% OA solution will bring everything into the safe/effective range correct?

(back of a napkin calculations = 2.3 sugar/2 water, and 3.x OA %)

 

[gavin]

here is not needed Gavin's calculations because varroa group made to each country the calculations. north Europe, Switzerland has mildest 2,8% and Italy has strongest 4,2%.

We had a very specific request from Poly Hive on what to do to convert his one litre of 6% oxalic, 30% syrup, to the most common strength used in the UK. I have tried to do that and I think that the advice was reasonable. It might be a few ml out (and I'm happy to be corrected), but the outcome should be a solution similar to the 75+1000+1000 recipe that most of us have been using. Some call it 4.5% OA dh, some call it 3.2% OA. Your shouting in enormous letters about the quantities was simply ridiculous as that was what was asked for, converting one litre of solution.

I have not seen not a single correct calculation made by Gavin.

I got involved in an argument with you about this last year because you were giving wrong advice. It must be irritating for you to be corrected like that, but what matters is that people are given good advice and not mislead by strongly worded misinformation. So give it a break, eh Finman?

 

[boca]

OA concentration

The last post at this link seems to be answer what is the content of the Italian product.
http://www.britishbeekeepersassociation.com/members/forum.php?t=3689&pg=1

So the product probably contains 4.2 g OA and 30 g sugar in 100 ml.
The 6% is only to create confusion...