Natural or Unmanaged?

[drumgerry]

Maybe at my age I should have learned not to try to enter into a discussion with a zealot. A more pointless exercise could not be conceived.

Despite being (horror of horrors) an ordinary beekeeper using (god forbid) National hives I have an open mind about most things. I like to think of myself as progressive and au fait with most of what's modern about beekeeping but clearly to the natural crowd I'm a dinosaur who shamefully takes a honey harvest if the bees manage to make sufficient surplus.

 

[Dishmop]

I myself have nothing against what Heidi is doing but what I, and probably others object to, is Heidi giving out to the world that methods other than her "natural" way are all horrific and cruel, and that she is the saviour who has seen the light. Her way is the only way to save the honey bee, and the only way forward to a better world.... free of barbaric beekeeping methods that rob bees of thier hard won sustainance.

The painted hives are very nice and I will admit that it did at one time cross my mind to paint mine in a similar fashion to brighten up the garden, as indeed they do in Heidi's garden, or the college or wherever they are.
I do wonder if the people who pay to be shown how to make the sun hives actually intend to become beeks and therefore arises the question of where are thier bees going to come from? Supplied free from collected swarms or will they have to be paid for? Not that I care either way as I'm sure the majority here would like to have cash in hand for a box of bees.
What I see here is visions of gurus and the laying on of hands and please donate and volunteer under the guise of so called natural beekeeping, but Heidi fails to tell them that there can be no such thing. Again, I dont care. If the underlying intention is to earn a few bucks, OK, again I dont care, but to try and tell the world via what was a very handy press interview/advertisment, that today's beekeeping methods are wrong and subliminally insinuate that it is us beeks that may be responsible for any honey bee decline is slap bang out of order.
A more accurate term for Heidi's method of beekeeping might be, "Free Range minimal Beekeeping"

 

[Brosville]

Having read the vicious and latterly blatant ad hominem attacks (which are very typical of those directed towards those of us who practice (more) natural beekeeping, I think it was entirely reasonable to leave the playground bullies to their own devices.
I can't answer for Heidi, I'm someone who keeps a few bees for the pleasure of it, hopefully in a genuinely apicentric manner - if they have some honey to spare, I'm very grateful for it, but to me, the welfare of the bees comes above all else. As for demanding that "we" should tell commercial beekeepers how to do their job- I wouldn't presume to do so - there may be aspects of their methods that I choose not to use myself, and it is entirely reasonable to discuss those differences in a civilised and non-confrontational manner............

 

[Dishmop]

With this I conclude my participation in this discussion, to give you time to resume your life and myself to talk to my bees

I bet they wont get any answers out of her either. did anybody else?

 

[sunhivebee]

Maybe at my age I should have learned not to try to enter into a discussion with a zealot. A more pointless exercise could not be conceived.

Despite being (horror of horrors) an ordinary beekeeper using (god forbid) National hives I have an open mind about most things. I like to think of myself as progressive and au fait with most of what's modern about beekeeping but clearly to the natural crowd I'm a dinosaur who shamefully takes a honey harvest if the bees manage to make sufficient surplus.

BRAVO!!! REjoice ye angeals in the heavens! You got it! You actually agree that harvesting is ok when there is a surplus, and only then!! WELL DONE. That is the whole point. So happy to have got throuh!
Wow, that really made my day!

Your extraordinary leap forward in understanding and conforming one of the central tenets of natural beekeeping is a cause for celebration.

 

[Dishmop]

Having read the vicious and latterly blatant ad hominem attacks (which are very typical of those directed towards those of us who practice (more) natural beekeeping, I think it was entirely reasonable to leave the playground bullies to their own devices.
I can't answer for Heidi, I'm someone who keeps a few bees for the pleasure of it, hopefully in a genuinely apicentric manner - if they have some honey to spare, I'm very grateful for it, but to me, the welfare of the bees comes above all else. As for demanding that "we" should tell commercial beekeepers how to do their job- I wouldn't presume to do so - there may be aspects of their methods that I choose not to use myself, and it is entirely reasonable to discuss those differences in a civilised and non-confrontational manner............

Much the same here.... I'm just a two hive keeper.

 

[Dishmop]

BRAVO!!! REjoice ye angeals in the heavens! You got it! You actually agree that harvesting is ok when there is a surplus, and only then!! WELL DONE. That is the whole point. So happy to have got throuh!
Wow, that really made my day!

Thats the way it goes, or did you think that we take every drop of honey that the bees make and feed them sugar? In which case you need to do some more reading.

 

[drumgerry]

BRAVO!!! REjoice ye angeals in the heavens! You got it! You actually agree that harvesting is ok when there is a surplus, and only then!! WELL DONE. That is the whole point. So happy to have got throuh!
Wow, that really made my day!

Your extraordinary leap forward in understanding and conforming one of the central tenets of natural beekeeping is a cause for celebration.

If you maybe stopped to ask Heidi you'd find that's what nearly every ordinary beekeeper does. You assume we're exploiting our bees and taking every drop of honey from them but you don't think to ask if that's the case.

I for one didn't "get it" as you so sarcastically put it. I've never done anything else in the 10 years I've kept bees.

You didn't get through to me. I WILL NEVER keep bees in the manner you choose to keep them as I think it's cruel, uncaring and irresponsible.

 

[domino]

You lot are too soft, my bees do my housework

 

[pargyle]

Well .... I think Heidi has a place on here - she may not keep her bees in a conventional way but it is clear that her colonies are thriving and healthy .. there are a lot more beekeepers (new and well established) taking an interest in alternative and 'unconventional' methods and we should all be open minded about what can be achieved. There are a number of 'conventional' beekeepers on here who really are entrenched in a position that doesn't seem to hold any truck for any way other than theirs and some of you have been quite rude about Heidi and the way she operates, this is really unecessary.

I don't see, in her posts, anywhere that she has advocated that HER way is the only way ... she has a philosophy and clearly advocates a non-invasive, non-chemical based method of keeping bees and if that works for her then perhaps it will work for others. If it doesn't, then it's back to the science ... but I know what I would prefer.

 

[Dishmop]

You didn't get through to me. I WILL NEVER keep bees in the manner you choose to keep them as I think it's cruel, uncaring and irresponsible.

Easy to extract the honey from tho.. Just put a drill on the end.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Having read the vicious and latterly blatant ad hominem attacks (which are very typical of those directed towards those of us who practice (more) natural beekeeping

And here comes Brossy with hit two pen'north again. If you had been paying attention you would have seen pages of civilised discussion and enquiry, maybe a few confrontational posts (but surely even you are not so naiive to think we should not get a wee bit controversial in a debate) It was Heidi who eventually went for the usual attacks:

Let's discuss when you have swotted up on the thermal insulation properties of straw versus wood.

the feeding of sugar to substitute for the honey removed by the beekeeper. Strangely, a rather shameful practice still widely pursued by beekeepers, but a total waste of time to discuss.

BEEKEEPERS WHO RECKON THAT THE BEES CAN BE FED RUBBISH SO THAT THEY CAN EAT HONEY OR SO THAT SUPOERMARKETS CAN STOCK IT IN VAST QUANTITIES WHILE BEES ARE fed rubbish to keep them going

instead of replying to a perfectly reasonable post.:

As for demanding that "we" should tell commercial beekeepers how to do their job- I wouldn't presume to do so - there may be aspects of their methods that I choose not to use myself, and it is entirely reasonable to discuss those differences in a civilised and non-confrontational manner............

Which is waht Drumgerry ws trying to do:

Just out of curiosity Heidi I'd be interested to hear what your advice would be to the likes of Murray on how to apply your methods to his business running 2,000 plus hives or any of the other commercial beekeepers. Would you be of the opinion that they could make a living using your "apicentric" approach?

 

[For want of a better word]

"Free Range minimal Beekeeping"... nice one Dishmop !
will add to Finnmanns famed Englishman's "catch and release Beekeeping" !!!


As to where bees are obtained... one natural type beekeeping London site is advertising a box of overwintered in the UK Carniolian bees with a newly mated queen for a snip of £260 delivered free around the M25... presumably imported as available in April?

I am just trying to imagine the chaos a swarming colony of Carniolians would cause if it settled on a lamp post on a busy shopping day in the middle of Oxford street !

adds nothing to this debate I know... but makes a light relief from making up and waxing 1000 DN4 frames!

 

[Dishmop]

I am just trying to imagine the chaos a swarming colony of Carniolians would cause if it settled on a lamp post on a busy shopping day in the middle of Oxford street !

Last year there was a swarm in the middle of Norwich that did exactly that.
Nobody took much notice. Only comments were that it was light a big dark cloud. No Hitchcock panic. Now I think of it, it was outside Jessops. HHmm.

 

[domino]

I personally don't care how people choose to keep bees. As long as it doesn't affect other people I really don't care.

I suspect where most of this emotion comes from is when one group of beekeepers tell the others they don't care and are cruel.

I've seen two common suggestions on this thread and the comments on the original article. One is that beekeepers routinely cut out queen cells as part of swarm suppression and the other is that hives are pillaged of ever last drop of honey. Most of those comments rarely give first hand experiences of seeing this, but insist it happens.

Even David Heff falls into this trap in the comments of this article.

[..]cutting out queen cells week after week. I've not actually met anyone who does it but I've heard it is still done.

I've also heard Phil Chandler call traditional beekeepers the cult of Langstroth.

I'm pretty sure I'll give TBHs a whirl one day, if someone tells me they have a better way of doing something I'm going to listen to them. Unless the politicise my hobby or suggest I'm inconsiderate about my bees. Because like 99.999% of beeks I care deeply for their well being.

 

[DanBee]

Having read the vicious and latterly blatant ad hominem attacks (which are very typical of those directed towards those of us who practice (more) natural beekeeping, I think it was entirely reasonable to leave the playground bullies to their own devices.

I read the above exchange as frustrated rather than vicious. Heidi frequently makes gushing statements about how wonderful her methods are, and does indeed rely on contrasting her ways with the perceived negatives of 'conventional' beekeeping. When pushed to explain her rationale, or how she comes to believe some of these more extreme negatives, she has ducked out of the discussion. It was the same the other day when several asked how she could justify swarm propagation as good and swarm management as bad.

As for demanding that "we" should tell commercial beekeepers how to do their job- I wouldn't presume to do so - there may be aspects of their methods that I choose not to use myself, and it is entirely reasonable to discuss those differences in a civilised and non-confrontational manner............

Then why do you presume to tell farmers what they can and can't grow, or how they can and can't manage their crops?

 

[pargyle]

Then why do you presume to tell farmers what they can and can't grow, or how they can and can't manage their crops?

I don't think she did but ... if we are talking about using pesticides (and in particular neonicitinoids) or GMo's in farming then, as these could have a wider and adverse affect on surrounding flora/fauna etc. then I think that we SHOULD be telling farmers what they can and can't use. Sadly, there appears to be less enthusiasm for such restrictions in the UK than there are in Europe ... and no legislation .... as yet ?

 

[Dishmop]

When pushed to explain her rationale, or how she comes to believe some of these more extreme negatives, she has ducked out of the discussion.

One sadly wonders how misinformed she really may be and therefore just what sort of "tuition" she is giving her bees in a basket scholars.

 

[madasafish]

I don't think she did but ... if we are talking about using pesticides (and in particular neonicitinoids) or GMo's in farming then, as these could have a wider and adverse affect on surrounding flora/fauna etc. then I think that we SHOULD be telling farmers what they can and can't use. Sadly, there appears to be less enthusiasm for such restrictions in the UK than there are in Europe ... and no legislation .... as yet ?

There is a simple reason for that.

So simple the anti brigade either are stupid and don't see it or realise it but keep quiet.

As it stands, modern agriculture would not produce current volumes if insects were not killed. So if neonics were banned either an alternative must be immediately available or yields fall until practices change - which will take years. Or ploughing up lots more land to compensate.. where?

With minimal world stocks of food held, yields falling means higher prices at best and starvation for some at worst.


Funny the anti brigade don't mention that.. But zealots are usually like that.

Until they offer sensible practical alternatives I treat them as nutters .

 

[susbees]

BRAVO!!! REjoice ye angeals in the heavens! You got it! You actually agree that harvesting is ok when there is a surplus, and only then!! WELL DONE. That is the whole point. So happy to have got throuh!
Wow, that really made my day!

Your extraordinary leap forward in understanding and conforming one of the central tenets of natural beekeeping is a cause for celebration.

And that's not patronising?
Use of the word rubbish when it was such an issue before?

Discussion on thin straw basket versus timber?
Comment on why you assume that skeps can't have their combs inspected?
Discussion as to why you feel clipping wings is an issue...as there is no moral or ethical one, rather an aesthetic issue (which may indeed be valid)?