Mail Order Queens

[Beesnaturally]

Well, humans are part of nature and Br. Adam built his human strategy on thriving survivors (albeit without varroa to complicate his life) so a parallel is fairly clear: two strands of nature working to select.

That's one way to look at things, but most of the time when we speak of nature we are talking about what happens when people aren’t around, or aren't interfering in natural processes.

 

[Beesnaturally]

It seems to me that we have sidetracked into defending buckfasts. Certainly the film focused on them, and I'm not really sure why.

Here in the treatment free section the only interest I have in buckfasts is what happens if you don't treat them.

And, are they all alike in that respect, or is there variation?

 

[Anduril]

Here in the treatment free section

Here in the Buckfast section of the forum, well the video was about Buckfasts as well so no sidetracking

 

[Beesnaturally]

Here in the Buckfast section of the forum, well the video was about Buckfasts as well so no sidetracking

I guess that answers my question.

 

[rolande]

And, are they all alike in that respect, or is there variation?

Surely there has to be a difference. But you said earlier that they're all "non survivors". If you don't want to talk buckfast, don't categorise all the different modern lines in sweeping derogative statements , and at least give a passing nod to the fact that there are some internationally respected buckfast breeders out there who are trying to select for resistance. Just because they're doing things differently to you doesn't, in itself, mean that their efforts are worth less than yours.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Surely there has to be a difference. But you said earlier that they're all "non survivors". If you don't want to talk buckfast, don't categorise all the different modern lines in sweeping derogative statements , and at least give a passing nod to the fact that there are some internationally respected buckfast breeders out there who are trying to select for resistance. Just because they're doing things differently to you doesn't, in itself, mean that their efforts are worth less than yours.

Hey, I asked the the question. If you want to fill me in I'm all ears.

Not that I'm that interested. When I see breeders (of any race or hybrid) talking about the mechanism by which treating suppresses resistance and making a case for breeding locally, then I'll be interested. The standing conflict of interest mean that's probably not going to happen on any scale likely to dent the trade. I might be wrong, as I say, fill me in.

What is needed more than anything is influential people who understand the problem talking about it.

 

[rolande]

Hey, I asked the the question. If you want to fill me in I'm all ears.

Not that I'm that interested

I think you know me well enough to know that I won't intentionally waste your time with stuff that doesn't interest you but that I do have lots of references at my fingertips, all of which are easily searchable for those that are interested

 

[Beesnaturally]

I think you know me well enough to know that I won't intentionally waste your time with stuff that doesn't interest you but that I do have lots of references at my fingertips, all of which are easily searchable for those that are interested

This looks like a good start. Would you agree? https://www.apidologie.org/articles/apido/full_html/2010/03/m09147/m09147.html

Note, ref the claims made in the film and my own position which you know:

Breeding programs are well established in many European countries, based on performance tests, statistical data analysis, and the mass propagation and controlled mating of selected breeder colonies (Lodesani and Costa, 2003). The strong impact of selective breeding on the population is evident due to the significant reduction of genetic variability in European compared to wild African colonies (Moritz et al., 2007).

In the majority of selection and breeding programs, economic traits (such as honey productivity and colony strength) together with traits desirable for modern beekeeping (such as gentle temper and low swarming tendency) have been of predominant importance. In contrast, disease resistance, viability, and adaptation to local conditions were considered less important, as deficiencies in these characters could often be compensated by pharmaceuticals, artificial feeding, and other management techniques.

Results seem grim:
"To survey the success of selection programs for Varroa resistance, 14 European strains of bees were compared on an isolated Adriatic island (Unije, Croatia) over a period of 2.5 years (Berg et al., 2001; Büchler et al., 2002). Seven strains originated from selection programs for resistance to V. destructor (Carniolan n = 5; Buckfast n = 1; hybrid n = 1), and the other seven were unselected strains (Carniolan n = 5; Buckfast n = 1, Ligustica n = 1). The 117 colonies were started as artificial swarms (1.6 kg) with 270 Varroa each and were maintained according to normal management practices but without any treatment against Varroa.

At the end of the experiment most of the colonies had died, with only 15 colonies still alive. While in the first year colony losses mainly were attributed to difficulties in adaptation to the specific local conditions on the island (hot and dry summer, strong winds), colony losses in 2001 and 2002 were predominantly caused by varroosis."

Compare:
"Varroa surviving bee (VSB) colonies were identified in untreated Apis mellifera populations from a few different locations in Europe. Similar observations were reported by Seeley (2007) from a small bee population in the Arnot Forest in the northeastern United States.

When Varroa mites first invaded France in the 1980s, feral and untreated colonies were destroyed by the mites. The first observations of natural VSB were made in 1994 in western France, near Le Mans, where feral and untreated colonies seemed to survive the mite infestation for a few years. In 1999, 10 out of 12 of such untreated colonies were still surviving (5 of them survived for more than 11 years). At that time, 82 colonies that were untreated for at least 2 years were collected to characterize their survival without Varroa control. The colonies were managed only to monitor their survival. They were allowed to swarm and replace their queens naturally. On average, the survival of those colonies was 7.88 ± 0.3 years with a maximum of 15 years (Le Conte et al., 2007)."

I'd say this says: stick with your local ferals.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think you know me well enough to know that I won't intentionally waste your time with stuff that doesn't interest you but that I do have lots of references at my fingertips, all of which are easily searchable for those that are interested

I can move this thread to the general beekeeping section?

 

[pargyle]

I can move this thread to the general beekeeping section?

Probably best left here for the time being ... if he wants to start a new thread in the general section ... there's too much TF stuff in this thread.

 

[Swarm]

Probably best left here for the time being ... if he wants to start a new thread in the general section ... there's too much TF stuff in this thread.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I suppose they might as well argue here as anywhere else. Bit daft putting a post about Buckfast up in the TF section

 

[ericbeaumont]

most of the time when we speak of nature we are talking about what happens when people aren’t around, or aren't interfering in natural processes.

Quite a mistaken view, from which flow many of the ills the world now faces: it persuades mankind to believe it is separate and above nature, and so immune from the consequences of avaricious human practices, and at ease with using nature as an infinite and disposable commodity.

Nature is a jigsaw and we are one piece; like it or not, the puzzle is incomplete without our inclusion.

 

[Swarm]

Quite a mistaken view, from which flows many of the ills the world now faces: it persuades mankind to believe it is separate and above nature, and so immune from the consequences of avaricious human practices, and at ease with using nature as an infinite and disposable commodity.

Nature is a jigsaw and we are one piece; like it or not, the puzzle is incomplete without our inclusion.

That's a bit like saying people who were murdered died from natural causes, which makes the murderers innocent.

 

[rolande]

I suppose they might as well argue here as anywhere else. Bit daft putting a post about Buckfast up in the TF section

Rest assured, there won't be any arguing between me and M, I've been around far too long to consider trying! It's not even that I don't have a lot of sympathy for his core beliefs, just that I don't like what sometimes comes across as zero tolerance for other ways of doing things, especially when some of the people involved are highly successful beekeepers.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I can move this thread to the general beekeeping section?

you should, because it's got nothing to do with TF but rather the Buckfast bashers

 

[madasafish]

Locally last year/early this year we had high winter losses in some areas .. largely due to isolation starvation from November /Early December due to c 9 continuous nights of -8 to -10C and days of -1C maximum.
My local allotment lost 1 out of 4 , others lost 6 out of 13. One lost all his winter nucs.
I - with a gene mix of local/non local mongrels - lost 1 out of 13. And overwintered a double mini nuc successfully.

Common factor in high losses: local bees coupled with Treatment Free.. But also feeding method.

(I place fondant on top of topbars under a clear poly sheet so checking does not disturb bees. And check every three weeks . And treat.)

My conclusions: too many variables to generalise.

 

[warsaw_hive]

I suppose they might as well argue here as anywhere else. Bit daft putting a post about Buckfast up in the TF section

The problem is not where it's posted, but the fact that: a) people can't read and b) find it impossible to accept that people can have different opinions to themselves. I specifically said who the film would not appeal to and why I was posting it in TF. I did this in an attempt to avoid the arguments that have played out. It's the same posters who have to appear on every thread.

Some more info about the film can be found on the Oxfordshire Natural Beekeeping page: https://oxnatbees.wordpress.com/2024/02/19/onbg-meeting-february-2024-history-and-high-tech/ Luke explains why the film ended up being rather one sided: "He described how the 25 minute limit imposed difficult editing decisions: entire sequences had to be cut. Luke explained how we were an unusual audience as it’s our subject, and the film is very visual in order to appeal to, and inform a wide audience. ..... A director has to take some kind of viewpoint or a film lacks impact.”

 

[Erichalfbee]

The problem is not where it's posted, but the fact that: a) people can't read and b) find it impossible to accept that people can have different opinions to themselves.

That can be applied equally to posters on each side of the divide.
The treatment free forum was set up on my advice to admin to enable a space for those beekeepers who are treatment free to discuss amongst themselves. I say again that starting a new thread linking a film about Buckfast bees was always going to be inflammatory.
No matter how the piece was edited it is what it is.

 

[ericbeaumont]

due to isolation starvation

Small colonies in big boxes.

Common factor in high losses

Small colonies in big boxes.