Natural or Unmanaged?

[drumgerry]

I think that response she gave me Susbees says it all.

 

[Madge]

BRAVO!!! REjoice ye angeals in the heavens! You got it! You actually agree that harvesting is ok when there is a surplus, and only then!! WELL DONE. ...

But Heidi - who doesn't!? It really isn't just people who call themselves 'natural beekeepers' who care for their bees.
Kitta

 

[sunhivebee]

And that's not patronising?
Use of the word rubbish when it was such an issue before?

Discussion on thin straw basket versus timber?
Comment on why you assume that skeps can't have their combs inspected?
Discussion as to why you feel clipping wings is an issue...as there is no moral or ethical one, rather an aesthetic issue (which may indeed be valid)?

Dear sustainable beekeeper, I am really out of this discussion now but make an exception for you, just to tell you that my otherwise perfect equanmity occasionally fails me under severe provocation. I will strive for more enlightenment in this regard and hope that my privileged life in soft fluffy bee wonderland will assist me in this endeavour.

I do not feel like commenting on the relative aesthetics of queen bee mutilation at this moment but am sure that the practioners of such will be able to throw more light on that.

I feel very satisfied that some, or at least one of my interlocutors today has confirmed that harvesting honey is absolutely fine when the colony concerned has made a surplus.
When this progressive notion is adopted widely in the beekeeping community, autumn sugar sales should fall significantly.

All the best, gushingly

Your very temperamental celebrity beekeeper (thanks for the new byline),

 

[Anduril]

And that's not patronising?
Use of the word rubbish when it was such an issue before?

Discussion on thin straw basket versus timber?
Comment on why you assume that skeps can't have their combs inspected?
Discussion as to why you feel clipping wings is an issue...as there is no moral or ethical one, rather an aesthetic issue (which may indeed be valid)?

Downside of a clipped queen in a sun hive if she falls out through the hole she cannot fly back.

 

[sunhivebee]

But Heidi - who doesn't!? It really isn't just people who call themselves 'natural beekeepers' who care for their bees.
Kitta

Of course not, and I never asserted otherwise. Most people care for their bees, I am perfectly aware of that.

 

[drumgerry]

I do not feel like commenting on the relative aesthetics of queen bee mutilation at this moment but am sure that the practioners of such will be able to throw more light on that.

I feel very satisfied that some, or at least one of my interlocutors today has confirmed that harvesting honey is absolutely fine when the colony concerned has made a surplus.
When this progressive notion is adopted widely in the beekeeping community, autumn sugar sales should fall significantly.

Again with the emotive language Heidi. "Mutilation" - not a loaded term at all is it?! PS - please note the mutilated queen in my avatar who lived a long and fruitful life despite her disability!

And I hate to break it to you but most beekeepers harvest a surplus. What else would they harvest? Do you seriously think we're all out there extracting brood frames?

 

[sunhivebee]

Again with the emotive language Heidi. "Mutilation" - not a loaded term at all is it?!

And I hate to break it to you but most beekeepers harvest a surplus. What else would they harvest? Do you seriously think we're all out there extracting brood frames?

I am sure you are not serious. So let's define surplus: above and beqond what the colony is likely to require to sustain itself until spring of the following year.
If that was the generally accepted guiding principle in "harvesting" there would be sugar feeding only in exceptionally bad years.

Emotive language? Charge dismissed. Cutting the wings of a winged insect is mutilation, just as applying pesticides to crops is associated with poisoining, even if the favoured term in certain circles is "crop protection".
Ever heard of euphemisms?

 

[Dishmop]

I do not feel like commenting on the relative aesthetics of queen bee mutilation

in the same way that she didnt comment on much else other than that she is right and everybody else is wrong, or how she can justify incorrectly calling her methods of beekeeping as "natural" when beekeeping is not natural.

Well, we've had Urban Beekeeping, and Back Yard Beekeeping (both good books) and now Natural Beekeeping.

What next?

 

[Dishmop]

If that was the generally accepted guiding principle in "harvesting" there would be sugar feeding only in exceptionally bad years.

if your methods of beekeeping are as natural as nature intend, then in an exceptionally bad year the bees would die,, because you wouldnt feed them.

So let's define surplus: above and beqond what the colony is likely to require to sustain itself until spring of the following year.

So you have at last grasped the fact that we dont take every drop of honey. Will you be telling your students that as opposed to making the insinuation that we do take it all?

 

[drumgerry]

if your methods of beekeeping are as natural as nature intend, then in an exceptionally bad year the bees would die,, because you wouldnt feed them.

And why the arbitrary dividing line? Why just exceptionally bad years? Sugar is sugar is sugar - I'm sure the bees don't associate with the morals of giving it or not.

 

[simoncav]

OK, since we're on the subject of thermal properties - How about comparing straw to two inches of polystyrene?

As you are so well read and freely quote Tom Seely's excellent work on average beehive dimensions from his work on feral colonies living in trees, you will be completely au-fait with the thermal properties of colonies living inside a cavity surrounded by 6-9 inches of solid Oak or Cedar.

Temperatures and humidity levels properly modelled by a highly qualified physicist I know show that these conditions make it very difficult for fungal infections and gets pretty close to the max temperature that Varroa can tolerate. But of course you would know this and realise that the best way of truly replicating a wild colonies natural environment would be a vertically orientated hive made with walls of 2-3 inches of Polystyrene as 6-9 inches of wood is rather impractical - But don't let me stop you...

A super-insulated hive offers a rather interesting way of assisting bees to live in as natural environment as possible and is one area that we think justifies further investigation - But of course this bee-friendly approach is based on real science, so will be utterly ignored by those beekeepers trying to push their own agenda with the media rather than doing the best they can for their bees with an open mind....

 

[DanBee]

One sadly wonders how misinformed she really may be and therefore just what sort of "tuition" she is giving her bees in a basket scholars.

Is 'bees in a basket' the alternative to 'course in a case'?

 

[Dishmop]

Naturally.

 

[sunhivebee]

OK, since we're on the subject of thermal properties - How about comparing straw to two inches of polystyrene?

As you are so well read and freely quote Tom Seely's excellent work on average beehive dimensions from his work on feral colonies living in trees, you will be completely au-fait with the thermal properties of colonies living inside a cavity surrounded by 6-9 inches of solid Oak or Cedar.

Temperatures and humidity levels properly modelled by a highly qualified physicist I know show that these conditions make it very difficult for fungal infections and gets pretty close to the max temperature that Varroa can tolerate. But of course you would know this and realise that the best way of truly replicating a wild colonies natural environment would be a vertically orientated hive made with walls of 2-3 inches of Polystyrene as 6-9 inches of wood is rather impractical - But don't let me stop you...

A super-insulated hive offers a rather interesting way of assisting bees to live in as natural environment as possible and is one area that we think justifies further investigation - But of course this bee-friendly approach is based on real science, so will be utterly ignored by those beekeepers trying to push their own agenda with the media rather than doing the best they can for their bees with an open mind....

Thank you, a very interesting point. I am not sure whether you are right in assuming that it will be utterly ignored, no need for such pessimism, certainly worth thinking about; I shall be interested to learn more about how colonies fare in those. I have not got one myself, and might consider one if I found a way of concealing it within a more attractive looking structure, a consideration which might strike you as supercilious but is reasonably important to me. Do the bees propolise the interior? Is the entire hive made of polypropylene? Can it be used with frames only, without the use of foundatiion? Having read some scientific evidence of the contamination found in foundation I prefer not to use it). I look forward to hearing more, and thank you for attesting well-readness to me, very kind, but Seeley's Honeybee Democracy is surely a classic that most beekeepers will be aware of. Non-beekeepers, too - it was reviewed in the TLS. Remarkable, isn't it.

 

[Dishmop]

Can it be used with frames only

is there a need for them?

 

[Anduril]

Thank you, a very interesting point. I am not sure whether you are right in assuming that it will be utterly ignored, no need for such pessimism, certainly worth thinking about; I shall be interested to learn more about how colonies fare in those. I have not got one myself, and might consider one if I found a way of concealing it within a more attractive looking structure, a consideration which might strike you as supercilious but is reasonably important to me. Do the bees propolise the interior? Is the entire hive made of polypropylene? Can it be used with frames only, without the use of foundatiion? Having read some scientific evidence of the contamination found in foundation I prefer not to use it). I look forward to hearing more, and thank you for attesting well-readness to me, very kind, but Seeley's Honeybee Democracy is surely a classic that most beekeepers will be aware of. Non-beekeepers, too - it was reviewed in the TLS. Remarkable, isn't it.

You could use the wax your bees produce and make strips to fit into the frames, or do cut outs from your other hives. This could be an additional training course for you to consider.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is 'bees in a basket' the alternative to 'course in a case'?

So is chicken in a basket a type of 'natural' poultry farming?

 

[Dishmop]

So is chicken in a basket a type of 'natural' poultry farming

only if it has en-suite.

 

[sunhivebee]

You could use the wax your bees produce and make strips to fit into the frames, or do cut outs from your other hives. This could be an additional training course for you to consider.

Not sure what you mean by that. I am perfectly au-fait with framed hives, and would not consider anything but my own bees' wax. They tend to build their combs without starter strips, thanks to the ingenious design of the frames I use, and probably because they love me. I personally do not offer training courses - but thanks for the hint.

 

[simoncav]

Do the bees propolise the interior?

Not really, the interior surface is very smooth, but some colonies create a very thin layer of "polish" over the inside of the hive.

Is the entire hive made of polypropylene?

Yes - the hives are made of polystyrene, although my chum has also foil backed Kingspan which is simple and seems to be well accepted too.

Can it be used with frames only, without the use of foundation?

At present, for comparison purposes, the designs mimic standard hives (Langstroth & National) with frames. Thermal imaging cameras and internal sensors are used to measure cluster temperatures and hive design efficiency to understand where the heat is leaking from and how the bees are behaving inside. However, I personally use small starter strips rather than full foundation on most of my hives and the bees seem to cope perfectly well.

Finally, whilst poly hives are largely rectangular from a practical point of view, you need to protect them from UV light with a water-based exterior paint and can decorate them in any colour you want. it's an easy material to work with using a hot wire and PVA type glue and could in theory be made into any shape you desire. Finally, many early Poly hives have lasted over 30 years in good shape and can be recycled if required...