mk2 wasp traps blue peter version

[Karol]

<snip>

I'll leave it at that, the keyboard warriors and trolls can continue to have their say on why it's a bad thing, they need to feel they have some use in life

I have no wish to be a keyboard warrior or a troll (even if I may physically resemble one!). All I'm trying to do is share knowledge to help protect honey bees and to give beekeepers a choice of information from which they can choose what they think is in their bees best interests.

When it comes to wasp behaviour I have to take exception to your assertion that full traps mean that there will be fewer wasps in the vicinity of the traps. That just isn't the case. When wasps send out scouts to find food sources they do so 360° from their nest. Successful scouts return and recruit fellow wasps to whatever food source they find. To make this easier to explain, lets imagine that your hives represent a 10° fraction of that 360° that the scouts go out to. If you have a high efficiency wasp trap that protects your hives and successfully intercepts scouting wasps and prevents them returning to the nest then effectively that 10° becomes a Bermuda triangle - completely invisible. It means therefore that returning scouts will only be reporting on the remaining 350° so the remaining wasps will therefore fly off elsewhere other than your hives. If you use low efficiency traps then that 10° becomes a real welcoming beacon - a massive come and get it ladies! So what happens is that those wasps that would have gone out to the remaining 350° concentrate into your little 10°. The result is that you put your hives under more pressure than needs be.

As you say though, it's all about choice and I'm not trying to convert you away from what you are doing for yourself - I'm just providing an alternative for others to digest and think upon.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I lost a mini-nuc to wasps. (Actually I've lost more than one). I placed a wasp trap in it's place and that worked well - the wasps were already planning to go to the same location to rob out the bees. It was a bottle trap though and after a couple of days it stopped filling up with wasps, so it seemed to work. To avoid trapping hornets, the lid can stay on - but drilled - 6mm seems to work.

I tipped the slurry of jam water and wasps onto the grass. It killed the grass.

 

[dexter's shed]

If you use low efficiency traps then that 10° becomes a real welcoming beacon - a massive come and get it ladies! So what happens is that those wasps that would have gone out to the remaining 350° concentrate into your little 10°. The result is that you put your hives under more pressure than needs be.

As you say though, it's all about choice and I'm not trying to convert you away from what you are doing for yourself - I'm just providing an alternative for others to digest and think upon.

I'm not knocking you Karol,or calling you a warrior or troll and it's a good way of looking at it, let's say though that the 360 degree scouts find nothing to forage on, but the returning wasps from your unprotected or bad traps inform the nest, so all wasps end up coming to your hive, they will do this if no traps or poor traps are in place
you'll agree on that ?

so we have three scenarios.

1, totally unprotected hives, survival of the fittest,

2, badly protected hives, may reduce some attacks, it's a 50/50 chance that hives survive, still better than scenario 1

3, multiple traps that catch, you'll not eradicate the wasps, but lowering their numbers may help the poorer hives defend, having lots of hives closer together actually helps this,

so it just goes back to the beginning, doing something in my opinion is better than doing nothing,
doing nothing means you may loose a hive or two, doing something you may still lose the same amount, but at least you tried

it's just another one of those things that beeks will never agree on, a bit like winter feeding, I never used to do it on my woodland bees, this year I am, it was my decision to change and not from being forced to do so by the many trolls that visit here and think that their opinion is the only one that matters

 

[dexter's shed]

Using a full low-efficiency trap means that some wasps are getting out of the trap to fly back and tell the rest of the colony that there is food freely available, and where that food is.

If, during the course of the week when you don't visit your apiary, the trap becomes so full of dead wasps that others can't reach the bait food (jam?) then they will look elsewhere for something to eat. So using a low-efficiency trap means you are more than likely attracting wasps to your apiary rather than keeping them away.

As Dusty says, "When people go on about how great their traps are, because they're full of wasps, they're fooling themselves. It's just the opposite."

A high-efficiency trap will attract a scout or foraging wasp and keep it there, so it cannot go back to tell the rest of the colony about the food source.

I can fully understand what your saying, but actually having a trap with dead wasps actually acts as an attractant along with whatever sweet product is in there, it's more the smell than the jam itself,

but everything you say above is just hearsay, it reads great on paper, but each individual beek will have different results, some win some don't, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong,

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

,
each individual beek will have different results, some win some don't, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong,

Errrr - no!

Each individual recording their own experience is idiosyncratic.

Careful systematic observation of a wide spectrum of situations is research.

I know which I trust.

(And I recall how damaging idiosyncratic opinion was, to the MMR vaccination programme.)

Dusty

 

[Karol]

I'm not knocking you Karol,or calling you a warrior or troll and it's a good way of looking at it, let's say though that the 360 degree scouts find nothing to forage on, but the returning wasps from your unprotected or bad traps inform the nest, so all wasps end up coming to your hive, they will do this if no traps or poor traps are in place
you'll agree on that ?

Not really because wasps can fly two miles to find food so the likelihood of them finding alternative food sources is good, especially now that the ivy is out. If your hive is managed so as to reduce attractants and you have a defendable entrance then the scouts won't get to a food source and won't report the hives back to the nest. What you end up with is a constant low level stream of individual scouts that the hives will comfortably bat away.

so we have three scenarios.

1, totally unprotected hives, survival of the fittest,

2, badly protected hives, may reduce some attacks, it's a 50/50 chance that hives survive, still better than scenario 1

3, multiple traps that catch, you'll not eradicate the wasps, but lowering their numbers may help the poorer hives defend, having lots of hives closer together actually helps this,

These are your scenarios. There are others which I would consider to be more effective and more sophisticated but then that's integrated wasp management as a discipline. For example there are three levels of wasp attack each of which needs a different approach. Static trapping is usually sufficient to deal with scouting wasps but is rarely effective against swarm or frenzied feeding wasps. The ever present danger with low efficiency traps is that they create swarm feeding conditions and when those traps cease to be available - overfull, dried out, spilled over etc, the hives then have to contend with the swarm and not individual scouts which is much harder for them to do and much more likely to escalate to frenzied feeding.

so it just goes back to the beginning, doing something in my opinion is better than doing nothing,
doing nothing means you may loose a hive or two, doing something you may still lose the same amount, but at least you tried

And that's the difference. Haven't yet lost a single hive where IWM measures have been instigated properly on the back of a high efficiency trap. I'm not saying that that's down to the trap. It's about a holistic approach to protection.

it's just another one of those things that beeks will never agree on, a bit like winter feeding, I never used to do it on my woodland bees, this year I am, it was my decision to change and not from being forced to do so by the many trolls that visit here and think that their opinion is the only one that matters

I'm pleased that we agree on something

 

[Karol]

I can fully understand what your saying, but actually having a trap with dead wasps actually acts as an attractant along with whatever sweet product is in there, it's more the smell than the jam itself,

but everything you say above is just hearsay, it reads great on paper, but each individual beek will have different results, some win some don't, so it's impossible to say one is right and one is wrong,

All down to predictability and reproducibility of results.

Hearsay is lay people working to their own designs, i.e. trial and error by n of 1which is generally non reproducible territory.

It takes 10 to 11 hours of solid seminars back to back to train a pest controller in IWM. They wouldn't stomach that if IWM was hearsay and they wouldn't keep coming to the seminars if they didn't keep consistently getting better results - that's reproducibility but on the back of training and education.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have mentioned it before Erica that I only started trapping the wasp's once they started to gain entrance to my hive.. so basically they are already attracted to my hive with or without trap's of any kind.. I removed my 4 bottle trap's away from the hive after I seen a Red Admiral Butterfly in one of them.. I now have a Wasbane in place with very few wasp's in it but they are still bothering my hive.. luckily I followed Karol's advice and altered the entrance that can be guarded a lot better so the wasp's chewing themselves are finding it just about impossible to gain access .. on the bottle trap subject I have found that if they are regularly emptied most of the wasp's are drowned and i'm yet to see one escape.. but then again i'm not sat there 24/7.

I understand that. Next year get those wasp bane traps out before you see any wasps. Mine went out at the end of July. I asked Karol how long they remained viable without catching wasps and the answer was that as long as they catch insects of some kind they are ok till full

 

[snelgrove]

I am no wasp expert, I always thought that a full jam jar of dead wasps meant I was clearing the apiary of wasps. I didn't no wasps sent out scouts. I will be removing my jam jar traps, you live and learn

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you live and learn

Well some do

 

[snelgrove]

Well some do

Dogmatism prevails alot on here without mentioning any names

 

[oliver90owner]

There is one single way to avoid wasps killing colonies. The few that investigate the hives get nothing or are dead. That means strong colonies (by the time the wasps arrive) with entrances that can be easily defended. Once wasps get in and out (after feeding), the colony is under severe threat, because (as Karol says), the wasps communicate.

One most certainly does not need a pest exterminator when the bees are well able to do the job themselves. Most certainly a case of prevention rather than cure. Think simple (KISS principle) and avoid the problem in the first place.

Simple things - like not having an apiary in a top fruit orchard - is a start! Reducing entrances to a sensible size, before the wasps invade, is another. High efficiency traps are a must, but preferably not close to the hives. Wasps are likely more clever than pest controllers and attack the hives, if the pickings are easy - or more appetising than a jammy bottle of sludge.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I can fully understand what your saying, but actually having a trap with dead wasps actually acts as an attractant along with whatever sweet product is in there, it's more the smell than the jam itself

And once attracted to the apiary they will find another food source which they can, and will, try to exploit.

Think about being in a pub garden, one that has jam jars out to 'kill' wasps - there are always wasps sniffing around drinks on nearby tables because they don't ever fly straight to the jam jar trap.

but everything you say above is just hearsay, it reads great on paper,

No, I wasn't writing about either hearsay or what may have been written in a scientific paper. I was trying to describe, from experience, what does work as well as what doesn't work. I don't like getting stung by wasps, because I react quite badly - a far worse reaction than from a bee sting - so wasps are something I always note, and I also always note how they're being dealt with.

Places using jam traps end up being 'wasp haven', because even if the trap is full they keep on coming. This can make sitting or working outside an absolute misery, with the added serious risk of getting stung. Places that use Karol's traps are mostly wasp free.

It's the same with apiaries - those that use Karol's traps are mostly wasp free, those that use jam and any variety of home-made trap are almost always full of wasps.

If the Waspbane system didn't work, I'd say so, mostly because a jam jar is much cheaper!

 

[Hebeegeebee]

"Think about being in a pub garden",

I'm thinking I'm thinking!

 

[beebot]

Just out of interest can you direct me to the scientific research about waspbane. I don't use any traps and kinda go with the KISS principle mention by Oliver. (Well if I am being totally honest I'm too tight to buy waspbane and too lazy to make any)

 

[dexter's shed]

Just out of interest can you direct me to the scientific research about waspbane. I don't use any traps and kinda go with the KISS principle mention by Oliver. (Well if I am being totally honest I'm too tight to buy waspbane and too lazy to make any)

http://www.waspbane.com/

 

[beebot]

http://www.waspbane.com/

Obviously looked at that but there is no scientific research shown or quoted to back up the 'Scientifically proven' (i.e. published work) claim.

 

[Millet]

I had my doubt's about this trap but after using common sense as well as Karol's advice the trap now seems to be bagging the jasper's ..i have sat for around 6hr's on and off watching the trap and hive for the past few day's (much to my lady friend's disgust) job's to do and all that lol.. they is now a steady flow of wasp's getting trapped .. i have however had to let the odd wasp go from the trap through the odd bee getting in there (robber's surely) but as percentages go a lot more wasp's are being trapped than hopefully robbing bee's.. here is a picture of a wasp going to meet his friend and there maker..

 

[beebot]

I had my doubt's about this trap but after using common sense as well as Karol's advice the trap now seems to be bagging the jasper's ..i have sat for around 6hr's on and off watching the trap and hive for the past few day's (much to my lady friend's disgust) job's to do and all that lol.. they is now a steady flow of wasp's getting trapped .. i have however had to let the odd wasp go from the trap through the odd bee getting in there (robber's surely) but as percentages go a lot more wasp's are being trapped than hopefully robbing bee's.. here is a picture of a wasp going to meet his friend and there maker..

But if I understand Karol correctly it is not about the amount you trap is about how many escape and reducing the local population.

 

[Hans wilson]

As a novice have learnt a great deal from this thread, the two home made wasp traps will end up in the skip tonight, the wasp bane will be replenished tomorrow (both are full with wasps)
one positioned on roof of hive the other placed between two other hives
Thanks for the great info: