Local Association Show Judges. Your experiences?

[Ivor Kemp]

Here in Dorset we have just finished the local Honey Shows and as always the thorny topic of judging rears its ugly head.

Please don't think I am posting from a position of bitterness. Far from it, I personally secured a range of firsts, second and third prizes.

However, a number of entrants here grumble about judges who refuse to award certificates in some classes because they don't think the standard of entries is high enough and I just wondered whether this is a common trait throughout the regions.

For example there may be ten entries of wax candles and either only a first prize is awarded or the judge deems that none of the entries are worthy of a first prize. In one case this year none of five entries received a certificate at all because the judge thought the wax in all of them wasn't yellow enough!

I do tend to think that in most circumstances if there are at least three entries, prizes should be awarded or at least give a Highly Commended Certificate.

Furthermore, no notes are given by a judge as to how an entrant might improve for next year and so, after a lot of work, an exhibitor is often left with his/her entry looking as if it hasn't even been looked at or tasted.

I can't help feeling, as do others, that these events are not professional trade shows and the exhibits are put in by hobbyists, at some expense and who very often do not have a lot of time to put them together. They are then left feeling pretty anti-climatic and wondering whether it was all worth it!

What are other peoples' judges like and is this a common thing?

 

[enrico]

Involved with RHS shows. Judges often use not as schedule (NAS) or fail to give 1st 2nd or 3 rd because standard is low. Only right in a specialised show. A village show however is another matter..... Done mainly for fun.
E

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Hi enrico

Absolutely agree in the case of National Honey Show or RHS shows but as you have indicated a Local Association Show is surely a different matter.

Take for example the Dorset County Show. The Honey Tent is run by the Local Associations and acts as a much as a place for the public to get interested in bees as a show tent. The exhibits help to display the wonder of bees and beekeeping and it would be a shame if exhibitors were put off by the rigorous standards that seem to be demanded by the judges.

 

[masterBK]

Shows were originally introduced to raise standards amongst beekeepers. As one of the few forum members that admit to being a show judge, I think it is important that standards are upheld and will not award a prize to a entry of low merit if it is in a show that warrants a blue ribbon and a BBKA qualified show judge like myself. The only exception for me would be in the novices class. If the show is a small local show with only a few classes then maybe there is an argument for awarding prizes on the the best of the bunch basis but I can tell you that shows that go down this route end up with low standards and with few qualified judges prepared to go there again.

If the beekeepers don't know what the standards are then the way forward is have an "open show" where the judge does his/her stuff in front of an audience of the entrants and talks them through what he/she is doing and why entries are being rejected and why others are selected for the prizes. I often do such "open judging" but is does take much longer to complete the judging. Alternatively get the stewards that accompany the judge to take notes of the decisions relating to specific entry numbers eg an entry of liquid honey rejected due to incipient granulation or visible debris (especially hairs of the curly kind!!) or high water content. If I go to a show where I have to omit prizes then I always pass on the reasons to the show steward so that they can pass this information on.

I find it hard to believe that wax rejected because not yellow enough (heather wax by the way is almost white). More likely the wax was too dark due to overheating or contains contamination from too much propolis or just not clean enough.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Our association show takes place on a normal meeting night, we have a national judge who kindly officiates and all the judging is done in front of the members/competitors with the judge telling everyone what she is looking for and pointing out faults - unless the exhibit is particularly unpleasant then all prizes are awarded but the judge does point out if there are any demerits.
If the show is open to the public however, then quite rightly, if any exhibit is not up to standard then it shouldn't get an award, in the end a show is a test of whether we can offer the buyer a quality product = after all do we really want joe public to think that we are happy to sell sub standard wares? or is this another case of modern society's obsession than we can't have losers?

 

[Ivor Kemp]

Very interesting masterBK.

The maxim that shows were introduced to raise standards is a good one but I think the variety of classes has somewhat blurred this intention.

What I mean by this is that, in the case of the Honey, presumably the original reason for the show, I think the reasoning is essential. After all it is what people eat and possibly buy and should not be dirty and/or poorly produced.

However, and I presume that our shows are no different, a typical Honey Show now includes almost every variant of product that a Beekeeper could possibly produce and the the question of what is a high standard can become subjective and not be a fair ask in terms of the expense and time the exhibitor needs to put in to produce an entry that is even acceptable.

Take for example the candles that I quoted when none of the five entries were awarded a prize and yes you are right it was because the judge didn't think any were clean enough although in her words "not yellow enough".

Now surely the raison d'etre for a good candle is that it burns well and looks fairly presentable. At this level the requirement to produce the sort of clean wax that she was demanding would have taken a huge investment in time for an amateur hobbyist. And the judge didn't even have the decency to light any of the candles which I thought she was obliged to do because she had dismissed them all on the basis of appearance!

The numerous cakes, biscuits, flap-jack and fudge are further examples. If the produce is obviously unhealthy or is patently not the recipe that was given, then fair enough. But not to make awards purely on the basis that the judge didn't like the taste is frankly bordering on the arrogant. Photographs are another example.

All of this might be partially solved if there was more time for the judge to be able to leave even a few brief notes either next to the exhibit or with the Show Steward, although I do realise that it also might end up in arguments. I do also realise time is very short during the judging process in order to do this. I would add that the only reason we knew about the candles mentioned above was because a number of us sort out the judge to politely ask about her decisions. Interestingly she said that any wax items should only be made from cappings not any other comb (not heard this for candles before - my God you would need a lot of cappings to make a decent sized candle) and that it was down to the Association to teach people how to make exhibits of a high enough standard not her.

I really like the idea of the open-show concept. All would benefit here.

I take your point masterBK that without high demands the standard is likely to decrease BUT on the other hand, what we are finding is that, on the flip side, exhibitors are either giving up, buying in things like new clean comb to make products, saving winning entries to exhibit year after year (what is the point in that?) or getting professional help to come up with the entries.

It just seems these shows could be a lot more fun, a celebration of the end of the season and a coming together of an association in a collective way. Instead it seems a lot of people go home disillusioned having learned nothing and wondering whether it is worth all the effort next year or working out ways to 'beat the system' - one member reasoned it would be cheaper to buy a couple of professionally produced candles and enter them rather than clean and melt all her cappings, even if she had enough!

 

[Ivor Kemp]

jenkinsbrynmair If the show is open to the public however, then quite rightly, if any exhibit is not up to standard then it shouldn't get an award, in the end a show is a test of whether we can offer the buyer a quality product = after all do we really want joe public to think that we are happy to sell sub standard wares? or is this another case of modern society's obsession than we can't have losers?

Once again, I agree with you concerning honey or cut comb but surely the general public have enough sense to realise that exhibits such as Honey Flap Jack or a Photograph of Interest to Beekeepers is not on sale to them and it is just judging entries from amateur hobbyists.

I am certainly not arguing that we cant have losers, rather that in most classes if there are at least three entries and there is a first, second and third prize to be awarded then they should be, or, at worst, give Highly Commended certificates to distinguish. There were a few entries this year that were very poor but no one could distinguish between them and any others apart from one which had been given a First or Second Prize. All the rest appeared to be much of a muchness.

 

[Swarm]

Once had very high praise from the judge for my entry of cut comb, he went to great lengths to point out to everyone all the various things to look for when presenting cut comb.
He then went on to explain that he wasn't going to award (first, second or third) because there was only one other entry.
Nice to know that my cut comb was very good quality but with no rosette and looking at the beautiful rosettes awarded to even third placers in other sections, I don't think I'll bother again.
It's all very well to talk about maintaining high standards, when the judge goes on at length about how good the entry was and then refuses to judge it!!! That wouldn't encourage any standard AFAIC.

Honey shows, waste of time just like most other shows IMO.

 

[alldigging]

Can you enter three items per category?

 

[masterBK]

Swarm : Some shows need a minimum number of entries in a class before a prize can be awarded (check the show schedule). BBKA judges will award even a single entry if the item merits it and the schedule allows it. Maybe Welsh judges operate differently. I think Prize cards are a great advert for your honey so don't lose heart.

Alldigging: most shows allow multiple entries into a class (some restrict it to two) but you can only win one prize per class

 

[Swarm]

It was a local association show, a nice advert but hardly a large show and not the place for stringent application of petty rules, even if they existed.

I'm afraid I lost heart quite a long while ago.

 

[BeeJayBee]

It just seems these shows could be a lot more fun, a celebration of the end of the season and a coming together of an association in a collective way. Instead it seems a lot of people go home disillusioned having learned nothing and wondering whether it is worth all the effort next year or working out ways to 'beat the system' - one member reasoned it would be cheaper to buy a couple of professionally produced candles and enter them rather than clean and melt all her cappings, even if she had enough!

One of the associations I belong to has 'fun' classes in their show, there are loads of entries for these and members seem more willing to try their luck at the more formal classes.

Beating the system? I know of some who enter the same piece of wax every year, having stored it very carefully in the interim. The same with prize-winning honey, it's simply gently heated to make it run and re-filtered for the show bench.

"Cheating" by buying in wax of the right colour? Well, if somebody is so desperate to win a cardboard certificate or a little rosette that they'll deliberately flout the rules, then I suppose it's up to them and their conscience.

A lot of final judging is subjective, it's bound to be when there's only one person doing it. Once the honey with bits in, the unmatched pairs of candles, the overbaked cakes and biscuits, badly focused photos etc have been put to one side the judge has to make their own mind up about which entries they think are best, and what they think is worth awarding a prize. They may have a shortlist of five or six (or ten), and only three awards, so they'll choose the ones they like best.

If an association wants more flexible judging, for every class to have a first, second third etc, then it has to be clear in the schedule. It's up to the committee/show organiser to sort that out and to explain it to the judge(s).

It wouldn't be fair, though, for somebody to be awarded a best in show or a B8KA Blue Riband and think they're in with a chance at the National when their entry isn't of national standard.

If some people put a lot of effort into their entries and see something that's clearly of lesser quality getting a similar level award then they'll also complain that the judging is flawed - that it's too lenient for some classes.

So where do you draw the line?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I know of some who enter the same piece of wax every year, having stored it very carefully in the interim

Oh no!!!!!!!
WHO could that be??

 

[Ivor Kemp]

I know of some who enter the same piece of wax every year, having stored it very carefully in the interim

Oh no!!!!!!!
WHO could that be??

LOL x10

 

[enrico]

Can you enter three items per category?

Yes, never understood that rule. Just one is a challenge. Why let the best person get all three top prizes!
E

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Yes, never understood that rule. Just one is a challenge. Why let the best person get all three top prizes!
E

That's the point of the rule that regardless of how many entries you put in each class - you are only allowed one prize. (MBK did mention that in his post BTW)

 

[Ivor Kemp]

So glad I started this thread as I've learnt a lot about shows that, despite eight years beekeeping, I never knew nor have been told before.

I get the feeling that the main problem here is lack of communication and I can see both sides to the argument.

I can sympathise with a qualified judge's position who has been asked to come and judge a local association show in an almost impossible time with set standards that they have been instructed to observe.

On the other hand members of association are bombarded with appeals from their committee to come and have fun and enter the Honey Show "wouldn't it be great to see entries from all members this year" etc. etc without really explaining nor being transparent about the expected standards and rules. No wonder people are disappointed and lose heart like Swarm has done.

I can assure you masterbk that almost all of the regulations that you have mentioned in this thread are not listed in the show schedules down here nor are widely known by association members.

A similar situation occurred this year with one of our new members who had proudly produced a frame ready for extraction that had a good weight and a superb cover of capped honey but was ignored by the judge straight away because he "hadn't cleaned the outside of the frame of little bits of brace comb". The eventual winner was lighter and had significant gaps in the caps. Nothing was resolved afterwards with people's opinions varying. I myself would have thought that a judge should consider the actual content of the frame first and using the odd bits of brace comb on the wood to decide between two inseparable items thereafter - but I may be wrong because I just don't know - masterbk?

Whatever no one at the association had told him this in advance (if this is true) and he only found out because he had volunteered to be a helper for the show steward so happened to be there when the judge made her comments - she didn't know it was his.

Someone asked where you draw the line?

I think that in local association (possibly non public shows) the rulings should be more relaxed but agree it is up to the association to let the judge know in advance. For public (larger) shows I think there is room for both but it ought to be made clear in the show schedule which are the 'high standard' items and which the 'fun' ones.

The trouble with all of this is that it has the danger of being yet another thing that makes outsiders think of beekeepers as being rather too self-important and a bit of a clique. Certainly when I mention these stories to some of my non-beekeeping friends they just laugh, which is a shame I think.

 

[enrico]

That's the point of the rule that regardless of how many entries you put in each class - you are only allowed one prize. (MBK did mention that in his post BTW)

i did miss that in his post, sorry, but the 'local' show I entered at the weekend had up to three entries per class and I got 1st and 3rd so the proviso of one prize per class is not always there!
E

 

[BeeJayBee]

i did miss that in his post, sorry, but the 'local' show I entered at the weekend had up to three entries per class and I got 1st and 3rd so the proviso of one prize per class is not always there!

That's because the show schedule doesn't limit the number of prizes an individual can win. Maybe it should be changed?

 

[bontbee]

i did miss that in his post, sorry, but the 'local' show I entered at the weekend had up to three entries per class and I got 1st and 3rd so the proviso of one prize per class is not always there!
E

Good on you Enrico., but just to add my twopennorth...

Horticulture Shows tend to allocate prizes irrespective of how many entries an exhibitor has made. Although it 's an impressive achievement for the exhibitor to produce so many winning entries, as a visitor it is rather boring to see the same name over and over again. It must be completely dispiriting for anyone else who might consider entering.

My preference is for the method of limiting the number of prizes to one per person per class to avoid the above. In classes where double - or triple! - entries are allowed, the judge will select the best of each exhibitor's entries first, and then consider that against the rest of the class. The number of entries per person may vary per class - eg. entries which take up a lot of space, (comb for extraction, table displays) might be limited to one entry only for practical reasons, eg. available space. All classes may be limited to one exhibit. It doesn't matter as long as it is in the schedule.

Unfortunately, many exhibitors either don't read the schedule, or read it carefully enough, and then complain (and go off in a huff never to exhibit again) if their exhibit is rejected because it isn't according to the schedule. On the other hand, some schedules are so poorly compiled that they aren't worth the paper, and make the judge's job even harder. If there is conflict in the schedule, who makes the ruling? Judge, Show organiser, toss of the coin??? Whoever does and whatever the decision is needs to be communicated to those who have taken the time, effort and expense to exhibit. It goes without saying that the schedule should be - carefully - amended, or re-written for the next show. (The very time things do go awry with the schedule is when it is being tinkered with and class numbers are changed and the rules aren't!). If something isn't clear, a potential exhibitor should be able to get clarification from the Show Sec/organiser. Unfortunately, an invitation to do so is rarely included in a schedule)>