Kim Flottum on Varroa Resistance

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Not in my colonies it don't!!:icon_204-2:

VAPORISE !
beekeeorrs
Yeghes da

I want to see, how you vaporize feral Africanized colony in the jungle of Brazil.

Not laughing.

Why does not Afticanised bee overcome mite? Why it overcome mite in hobby beekeepers backyard in 10 years.... by the mercy of God.

I think that those natural beekeepers are not the honest gang of mankind.
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Second question..... Why university researchers do not research bee strains' ability to resist varroa.

There are some, but no research reports that mite has vanished from hives like in hobby beekeepers' hives.

What they report is that the hive stays alive despite of mites.

There is a proverb that the Love makes blind.
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It has been reported that Africanized colonies have amazingly much mites after 50 years' rabid evolution.
 
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. If we answer yes, that we really do have a problem with varroa and viruses, we need to understand that the only long term solution is to get rid of treatments.

I have no illusions that this scenario that all beekeepers stop treatments is near impossible. But we need to have a goal, what are we aiming at. We need small and big steps towards this goal.


There's a few of us out here that are treading the no treatment path ... and it is possible - it's working for me but the more bees I see in other people's apiaries the more I come to realise that there is an element of luck involved.

I don't know whether it's my bees, the conditions they are kept in, the area in which they forage or something else ..

I help look after a couple of colonies only a few miles from where I live and they appear to be constantly riddled with mites ... no non-treatment there - they get OA by sublimation and the drop afterwards is huge. Oddly, though, despite the infestation there's no signs of DWV or any other disease and they too are surviving ...

I think there's more to the relationship between bees, mites, location and environment than we currently know about but I agree that sooner or later the only way forward that has any long term chance of success is to find a way of balancing the relationship between mites and bees. My current view is that non-treatment for those colonies that can cope with it is an option with a fall back that requires minimal treatment should the bees show signs of being affected by the mites - and the best treatment IMO, at present, is OA by sublimation.
 
I think there's more to the relationship between bees, mites, location and environment than we currently know about ...

:yeahthat::iagree: It's always difficult, leaning towards impossible with so many parameters to consider. I often think that those promoting their single silver bullet may be missing other factors just as or more important. Coincidence is unfortunately often interpreted as consequence.
 
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I have followed with interest, what Juhani Lunden has done.
I would never follow his foot steps, even if some one pay for it. I know so much genetics and beekeeping.
 
:yeahthat::iagree: It's always difficult, leaning towards impossible with so many parameters to consider. I often think that those promoting their single silver bullet may be missing other factors just as or more important. Coincidence is unfortunately often interpreted as consequence.


There is no silver bullet... But selectively breeding stronger mites and propping up weak bees by chemical treatments is no way to move forward... Look at Seeley's findings on the bees in Ithaca (Cornell has article on their site) ..with the right selective pressure bees will squeeze thru that genetic bottleneck (without throwing piles of funding at some PhD students)


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:iagree:

Most people are breeding survivor mites - mites that survive any form of treatment because there doesn't seem to be a treatment available that will kill all mites within a colony.

What we should perhaps be trying to do is breed bees, and mites, that successfully co-exist. Mites will evolve and mutate more quickly than bees because their generations are shorter.

No they won't ... because bees are polyandrous, only reproduce sexually and exhibit behaviours that prevent inbreeding whereas mites have male haploidy and predominantly demonstate full-sib mating. Sequencing of the mite genome confirms this.
Inbreeding isn't relevant. There's a lot of research that shows haploids adapt and mutate faster than diploids. Harmful mutations die off more quickly, successful mutations are passed on more quickly. Here's an example http://www.nature.com/news/2001/010629/full/news010705-1.html
 
Why would untreated bees be more likely to be resistant to mites and than bees that have been treated
If the mechanism of resistance works for colonies with large mite loads wouldn't it also appear in colonies with fewer mites ?



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Don't forget that when bees are treated for mite infestation it isn't only the bees that get a dose of the stuff, the mites do too. It isn't the number of mites left in a colony after treatment, it's the ability of those mites to survive adverse conditions - i.e. treatment with any of a range of varroacides. Mites remaining in a colony after treatment are survivor mites, they and their progeny are more than likely harder to kill by subsequent treatments and that will include the treatments we're fairly sure they can't possibly adapt to.

We know that counting the 'natural' mite drop has become an unreliable indicator of the total mite load of a colony, but I'm not sure if anybody knows why fewer mites are falling off our bees now when compared to only a few years ago.

Ron Hoskins' bees do have mites, but his colonies don't die. It's from research on his colonies that we know that there are now at least two strains of the DWV virus, one of which seems to give a colony super-resistance to the other strain(s).

A. cerana manages to co-exist with varroa because it has a defence mechanism that deals with them. Admittedly it's V. jacobsoni and not V. destructor, but I don't know how significant that is. Why is it assumed that our bees can't also develop a defence strategy whilst, at the same time, the mites will adapt to live with our bees rather than kill them?

A careful (successful) parasite will not destroy its host. How much of a pest was Braula?
 
Braula just pinch food though they don't feed on the bees
I can see how mites can become resistant to certain treatments
Why would those treatment survivors be any more difficult for bees to remove or kill ?



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They may not be more difficult for the bees to deal with, but will probably be more difficult for the beekeeper to kill.
 
One of the academic papers that influenced Ron Hoskins (Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group) during his research is this - https://theses.lib.vt.edu/theses/available/etd-08162007-092313/unrestricted/lmburley.pdf

It's basically a collation of much worldwide research relating to the effect of chemicals on honeybees - its title is The Effects of Miticides on the Reproductive Physiology of Honey Bee (Apis mellifera L.) Queens and Drones

It's a long read (91 pages) but interesting. It's a thesis, so it's not research sponsored by an agrochemical company.

CVB
 
Why would untreated bees be more likely to be resistant to mites than bees that have been treated? If the mechanism of resistance works for colonies with large mite loads wouldn't it also appear in colonies with fewer mites?
This is a good example of selective pressure where the small effects of several genes are in play. So long as susceptible colonies are propped up with miticides, there is no selective pressure to bring the mite tolerant colonies to the forefront. Varroa mites sans treatments are an incredibly intense form of selective pressure. By treating bees, we remove this selective pressure and allow the susceptible colonies to thrive. Susceptible colonies produce most of the flying drones in an area therefore the queens don't get mated to drones carrying tolerance genes.

It is a vicious cycle, the only way off the treatment merry-go-round is for someone to bite the bullet and let a lot of susceptible colonies die, then breed from the survivors. Once survivors are established, introgress those traits into larger pools of susceptible bees until the entire population can be taken off treatments. The beekeeper can do a lot to speed up this process. For example, allogrooming traits are relatively easy to select by counting total mite drop vs mauled mites and breeding only from colonies with the highest percentage of damaged mites. Hygienic behavior is also easily selected using various brood removal tests.

It is not one magic bullet that will stop the mites, but several small effects added together can do the job. At some point, susceptible colonies have to be allowed to die and resistant colonies have to be the only colonies left to propagate. Brother Adam said so aptly that this is the inevitable fight and that beekeepers have to win it with genetics. In his day, it was trachea mites. That battle was fought and won in very short order because there were no huge efforts to treat bees. Breeding worked then and it will work now.

I've posted this elsewhere. This list is not exhaustive, it is the list of traits I know of that affect varroa tolerance.

The known mechanisms for varroa tolerance include:

Varroa Selective Hygiene - disrupts the reproductive cycle of the varroa mite
a. Detect infested larvae
b. Uncap infested larvae
c. Remove infested larvae
d. selection involves testing for hygienic behavior and removal of infested larvae

Allogrooming - bees grooming each other to remove mites
a. Varroa mauling - chewing and biting the mites which kills them
b. Selection involves monitoring for chewed mites on the bottom board

Breaks in brood rearing - during brood breaks, varroa cannot reproduce.
a. Heavy pollen collection - bees that collect pollen heavily are more sensitive to lack of pollen and shut down brood rearing earlier.
b. Sensitive to nectar dearth - bees that react to nectar shortage by breaking the brood cycle
c. Selection involves monitoring for bees that reduce brood rearing when pollen is unavailable

Reduced days to worker maturity - fewer days gives mites less time to reproduce
a. some worker bees mature in 19 days vs standard 21
b. using small cell foundation and timing brood emergence
c. Selection involves identifying the small percentage of colonies that mature workers in fewer days

Mite entombment - trap and kill mites in the cell
a. pupating larvae kill mites by trapping them between the cocoon and cell base
b. selection involves measuring and selecting for number of entombed mites
 
Thanks fusion power
You have obviously given the matter a great deal of thought
Will the survivor colonies be able to kill the mites and be resistant to DWV ?

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I have not treated my bees in any way for mites since fall 2004. They are alive and thriving. You tell me if it works. :cheers2:
 
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I have not treated my bees in any way for mites since fall 2004. They are alive and thriving. You tell me if it works. :cheers2:

Nothing like a good flow to cover many bee maladies, last time we had a reasonable flow where I operate was July 2014
 
Hi Fusion Power
In the 10 years or so since 2004 we're there a lot of losses
I am assuming that the bees you have are direct descendants of your 2004 bees
Did you have to buy in queens with the VSG provenance ?

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My bees show relatively high levels of at least 3 traits associated with mite tolerance. They demonstrate VSH as shown by actively removing larvae infested with mites. I don't see this very often because there are few mites in my colonies, but was fortunate enough to catch the bees in the act last spring when a local beekeeper was visiting and I pulled a brood frame to show him what my bees look like. He was amazed to see the bees tugging a larva out of the cell with attached mite. My bees also demonstrate decent levels of allogrooming. This was brought in from Carpenters bees with a purchase of 3 queens that were then used to raise queens to mate with my line drones. My bees also demonstrate relatively long mid-summer and winter brood breaks. I typically see 30 days mid-summer with no eggs laid and up to 60 broodless days from about Dec 1st to Feb 1st. I would emphasize that my bees are not all the same, there is variation from colony to colony and a lot of room to improve traits such as honey production and gentleness.

Mike Carpenter has been working on his bees for allogrooming for several years. http://www.carpentersapiaries.com/
 
Thanks Fusion Power
I wondered how it could be achieved
I expect there would be very high losses without the right stock
You have been fortunate to keep hold of the elusive genes
A lot of outcrossing and they might have lost all that

I kind of still feel that if bees are going to develop a mite strategy spontaneously they are just as likely to do that with a low mite count as a high one so treating is not counter productive
But I respect your position
DR




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