Hybrids & defensive/aggressive behaviour

[Mint Bee]

They do like mating with black drones and imo they throw out more drones to

I’ve seen this I have granddaughter’s that still have 100% black workers and drones

if you are working on the basis of colour, then I think you are mistaken. I've seen nothing to equate phenotype with genotype, and even with II you are not working with a pure breed standard

 

[Curly green finger's]

@Mint Bee I’m not just using colour alone there are many traits I’m using .

 

[warsaw_hive]

There you are then. No obstacle to other beekeepers keeping orange and grey bees, then, is there? Instead of wiping out a subspecies peace reigns.

Not really.

Even if AMM queens ignoring non-AMM drones was true (which I don't think it reliably is), the problem is orange queens are less picky with who they mate with. So they will mate with the local AMM drones and after a few generations the orange queen resembles something that is more like an AMM, what is often termed a mongrel on here. The drones produced by the (AMM like) mongrel queen could then go on to mate with a pure AMM queen, the offspring being termed a mongrel because they are now not pure AMM.

My bees used to reliably produce 100% black bees and I'd starting thinking about selling queens, I'd bought some apideas and practised grafting etc. However, recently a new beekeeper appeared in the village with stupidly yellow bees and now my queens produce 95% black bees. Thanks Mr new beekeeper, you've now made my queen's worthless. It's infuriating and I wish I could channel by inner Jason Statham and enact a scene from 'the beekeeper' film on them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd starting thinking about selling queens,

So you want this neighbour to stop keeping

stupidly yellow bees

?

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Not really.

Even if AMM queens ignoring non-AMM drones was true (which I don't think it reliably is), the problem is orange queens are less picky with who they mate with. So they will mate with the local AMM drones and after a few generations the orange queen resembles something that is more like an AMM, what is often termed a mongrel on here. The drones produced by the (AMM like) mongrel queen could then go on to mate with a pure AMM queen, the offspring being termed a mongrel because they are now not pure AMM.

My bees used to reliably produce 100% black bees and I'd starting thinking about selling queens, I'd bought some apideas and practised grafting etc. However, recently a new beekeeper appeared in the village with stupidly yellow bees and now my queens produce 95% black bees. Thanks Mr new beekeeper, you've now made my queen's worthless. It's infuriating and I wish I could channel by inner Jason Statham and enact a scene from 'the beekeeper' film on them.

Do you recommend the movie?

Sorry, just found this:
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/beekeeping-film-a-must-not-watch.56350/

 

[warsaw_hive]

Do you recommend the movie?

I've only seen the trailer. The Guardian review - "There’s a grubby, late-night appeal to his dialled-up trash aesthetic and The Beekeeper mostly works because of it". Sounds about right. If it was on the tele I'd probably stay up to watch it.

 

[warsaw_hive]

So you want this neighbour to stop keeping

?

I want them to stop keeping non AMM, so yes. It might not be them, it could be one of the two other beekeepers in the village. The bees around my bait box were huge yellow things, more like a wasp.

Returning to the title of this thread, the two other beekeepers have this year complained about defensive bees. I'm pretty sure one of them has introduced some carnica as I see it when I do wing morphology.

 

[madasafish]

I want them to stop keeping non AMM, so yes. It might not be them, it could be one of the two other beekeepers in the village. The bees around my bait box were huge yellow things, more like a wasp.

Returning to the title of this thread, the two other beekeepers have this year complained about defensive bees. I'm pretty sure one of them has introduced some carnica as I see it when I do wing morphology.

Offer them free AMM queens.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I want them to stop keeping non AMM, so yes.

It must be quite frustrating. Madasafish has a point. Swamp your fellow beekeepers with free queens.
Then get them to join your improvement programme.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

maybe they don't want to be dictated to as to what type of bee they have in their hives - I'm certain I wouldn't

 

[Mint Bee]

works for so many situations

 

[warsaw_hive]

Offer them free AMM queens.

I have done to the one beekeeper I know quite well. The offer was declined. The other beekeepers I don't know. It seems a bit of an awkward opening conversation "hello, you know those bees that you've probably spent hundreds of pounds on, would you mind killing the queen for me and replacing it with this one please?".

Maybe they think it is similarly awkward to knock on a door and ask for a queen, but the reality is I'd of gladly handed over an entire nuc to them for free to get them started.

 

[jarmo henttu]

I think if we left

i think if we stopped imports and left the population bee there would eventually be lots of pockets of black bees naturally

Varroa free pockets

 

[Antipodes]

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/aen.12124
The Ligurian Bee Act of 1885 allowed for ...

"Unwarranted entry by police of premises to search for and/or destroy bees ‘other than pure Ligurian or Italian’ or any receptacle for the same".

Updated a few times, the latest in 1997.

 

[savoyard]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queens.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

F1 hybrids (plant or animal) don't breed true. You finish up having to purchase successive generations if you want any kind of continuity of end result.

As far as bees are concerned, if an F1 queen mates with a local drone, results can be horrifying - like 50 followers coming into the house with you. Been there, seen it, done it :-(

The best all-round advice is to purchase locally-bred "mongrel" queens, if you want to introduce new blood into your existing stock. Then keep culling the poorest colonies. There are a number of scoring systems to identify the "best" bees. And be brave about culling - one local beekeeper kills half his end-of-season colonies!

Even so, some "local" areas breed better queens than others. My home apiary breeds quite twitchy bees; I have to mate my queens at a friend's house a few miles away, and the result is very mellow. I can usually get off without using any smoke at all.

Best of luck!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

As far as bees are concerned, if an F1 queen mates with a local drone, results can be horrifying

rubbish!

 

[Erichalfbee]

rubbish!

Agree
It certainly isn't my experience

 

[madasafish]

I must be doing something wrong. My F4 (or is it F6?) bees are perfectly calm.

(I do immediately cull horrible ones)

 

[oxnatbees]

As I have written before, my local bees are an affront to nature and are just horrible.
Anyone who suggests I breed from them - without knowing the reality of a local situation - is worth dismissing utterly.
Strangely enough, 4-5 miles away in a different valley, local bees appear quite reasonable..but then they are in Cheshire which is a lot warmer and a totally different microclimate.

The experiences of others (edit: Locally ) trying black bees from N Ireland has been rather discouraging.

Our Northern Staffordshire climate - from 100 to 300meters above sea level - can be very cold and wet in Winter, and Spring and Summer and Winter. (but wasps do well).

Sounds like the local stock is mating with your imports around you, and you are making them defensive, whilst 5 miles from you, the local stock is essentially a pure landrace.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Sounds like the local stock is mating with your imports around you, and you are making them defensive, whilst 5 miles from you, the local stock is essentially a pure landrace.

alternatively, it could be the local stock that's absolutely awful and it needs input from elsewhere to make it manageable