Hybrids & defensive/aggressive behaviour

[Erichalfbee]

Sadly, the word 'local' is the best we have to describe the bees that live in our area, either that or put up with the 'mongrel' stamp from beekeepers who talk about F2 and F3 of their chosen bee type
In the case of buckfast, a synthetic bee in the first place, it's even more laughable.

I can’t understand why keeping the bee we want, black, grey or “satsuma” should be an issue at all, laughable or not.

 

[user 819]

I keep my bee selection simple and propagate if poss superscedure cells and queens, improve my own stocks via selection and add other genes into the mix by nurturing the good tempered swarms .
From my bees/queens showing the best traits I try to improve my lot my allowing them to produce more drones then a lot of beeks allow, replacing manky /old comb with foundationless combs and they will often build drone comb if they wish to, replace excess stores after winter with drawn worker comb or more foundationless combs.
Trying to tip the balance in your favour by increasing your better genes via your colonies drones , forget about drone culling and act in the opposite direction and increase your drone population.

Give the bees /queen extra space very early and even with above average drone populations one will not see swarming increase or be anything different then that which one normally sees, with my colonies as all colonies they will think about swarming not this year then the next , it is a natural process that any beek needs to work with rather then against.
A happy hive is a content hive and drones are very much part of that contentment .

 

[Sutty]

So the consensus answer to my initial question is:-

Maybe!

 

[Swarm]

I can’t understand why keeping the bee we want, black, grey or “satsuma” should be an issue at all, laughable or not.

Who mentioned an issue? My post covers terminology

What is an F3 buckfast? It's just another mongrel. Why not call them what they are?.

and I think the way some dive straight in to vent their prejudices is more pathetic than laughable

I find the way some dive in to vent their prejudice both pathetic and laughable.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I think if we left

That will never happen. There will always be pockets of black bees.

i think if we stopped imports and left the population bee there would eventually be lots of pockets of black bees naturally

 

[madasafish]

As I have written before, my local bees are an affront to nature and are just horrible.
Anyone who suggests I breed from them - without knowing the reality of a local situation - is worth dismissing utterly.
Strangely enough, 4-5 miles away in a different valley, local bees appear quite reasonable..but then they are in Cheshire which is a lot warmer and a totally different microclimate.

The experiences of others (edit: Locally ) trying black bees from N Ireland has been rather discouraging.

Our Northern Staffordshire climate - from 100 to 300meters above sea level - can be very cold and wet in Winter, and Spring and Summer and Winter. (but wasps do well).

 

[Lislarybees]

As I have written before, my local bees are an affront to nature and are just horrible.
Anyone who suggests I breed from them - without knowing the reality of a local situation - is worth dismissing utterly.
Strangely enough, 4-5 miles away in a different valley, local bees appear quite reasonable..but then they are in Cheshire which is a lot warmer and a totally different microclimate.

The experiences of others (edit: Locally ) trying black bees from N Ireland has been rather discouraging.

Our Northern Staffordshire climate - from 100 to 300meters above sea level - can be very cold and wet in Winter, and Spring and Summer and Winter. (but wasps do well).

North Staffordshire sounds a lot like north Sligo we might stay a little warmer in Winter? The reality is your local bees are like that because of imports. Stop the inflow of genetics or repopulate with enough Amm to form a stable population and stop imports and you’ll be onto a winner

 

[Lislarybees]

As I have written before, my local bees are an affront to nature and are just horrible.
Anyone who suggests I breed from them - without knowing the reality of a local situation - is worth dismissing utterly.
Strangely enough, 4-5 miles away in a different valley, local bees appear quite reasonable..but then they are in Cheshire which is a lot warmer and a totally different microclimate.

The experiences of others (edit: Locally ) trying black bees from N Ireland has been rather discouraging.

Our Northern Staffordshire climate - from 100 to 300meters above sea level - can be very cold and wet in Winter, and Spring and Summer and Winter. (but wasps do well).

What was your experience with the Amm from NI?

 

[Erichalfbee]

i think if we stopped imports and left the population bee there would eventually be lots of pockets of black bees naturally

My point is that there are despite imports. There are opinions that Amm queens prefer to mate with Amm drones and avoid others. I’ve read them here on this forum. If that’s the case there isn’t a problem? Is the problem local mongrel non Amm interbreeding with each other which accounts for a lot of local aggression?
Anyway, for a lot of us it’s a hobby not a religion.

 

[Ely]

North Staffordshire sounds a lot like north Sligo we might stay a little warmer in Winter? The reality is your local bees are like that because of imports. Stop the inflow of genetics or repopulate with enough Amm to form a stable population and stop imports and you’ll be onto a winner

Leave bees alone and they will revert back to being defensive and aggressive because that is what is natural. That is why a lot of beekeepers buy in their queen's that are raised from carefully selected stock.

 

[Moobee]

Just musing about this year's beekeeping activities. Debating buying in a couple of queens.
Many years ago I bought a buckfast queen, she was prolific and her workers were calm & gentle - the next generation not so much! Defensive, "following" & stung neighbours some distance away!
I've read since that this is a recognised issue with buckfast hybrids. I'm just wondering if the same applies to other hybrids; eg if I buy a dark amm queen am I likely to get aggression in future hybrids with my darkish local mongrels.
Part of me thinks just keep selecting the best mongrels!

My best queens have been home reared (ie from QCs or splits) by selecting the optimum traits (for me, calm, gentle, good honey producers & over winter well). I have only bought in 3 queens to either boost colony numbers or requeen a hive where queen went AWOL - 2 from Paynes which were lovely, one from another supplier and her bees became progressively horrible. Had planned to requeen them in the spring as their really bad traits didn’t start to appear until late autumn but they saved me the bother by dwindling & dying out at the end of December…..

 

[Mint Bee]

North Staffordshire sounds a lot like north Sligo we might stay a little warmer in Winter? The reality is your local bees are like that because of imports. Stop the inflow of genetics or repopulate with enough Amm to form a stable population and stop imports and you’ll be onto a winner

Where do we get these mythical Amm's from to replace the local bees and form a stable population? Don't sound very locally adapted to me. I'm not aware anyone has actually defined what a pure Amm's genome looks like because there have been so many imports into this country (and Ireland) for at least a century. At best there are figures quoted in the 90% region so you are starting from hybrid mongrels anyway. Maybe you can start by sorting out your own countries ban on imports first before preaching to the UK.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Where do we get these mythical Amm's from to replace the local bees and form a stable population? Don't sound very locally adapted to me. I'm not aware anyone has actually defined what a pure Amm's genome looks like because there have been so many imports into this country (and Ireland) for at least a century. At best there are figures quoted in the 90% region so you are starting from hybrid mongrels anyway. Maybe you can start by sorting out your own countries ban on imports first before preaching to the UK.

I think there are beekeepers with more than 90% amms chain bridge honey farm have 90/95% pure amms are these still mongrels?

 

[Curly green finger's]

Are my own that have 100% black workers and drones still mongrel ?

 

[Curly green finger's]

My point is that there are despite imports. There are opinions that Amm queens prefer to mate with Amm drones and avoid others. I’ve read them here on this forum. If that’s the case there isn’t a problem? Is the problem local mongrel non Amm interbreeding with each other which accounts for a lot of local aggression?
Anyway, for a lot of us it’s a hobby not a religion.

They do like mating with black drones and imo they throw out more drones to

I’ve seen this I have granddaughter’s that still have 100% black workers and drones

 

[Wilco]

I find it interesting that many of the people claiming they want 'local' and 'AMM type' bees talk about selecting the best stock to breed from.

As soon as you start selective breeding, assuming you're doing it effectively, you're messing with the genetics in the local area and reducing the genetic diversity of that population by reducing the variation within each trait. So they stop being the very thing you're after. People who are serious about 'local AMM type bees' shouldn't be doing any selective breeding. People who want good, productive bees, select whatever you like from whatever starting stock you like. Just don't call it locally adapted or AMM. Perhaps it's arguably 'descended from' locally adapted/AMM but that's about as close as you can get if you're being honest with your wording.

 

[Erichalfbee]

They do like mating with black drones and imo they throw out more drones to

I’ve seen this I have granddaughter’s that still have 100% black workers and drones

There you are then. No obstacle to other beekeepers keeping orange and grey bees, then, is there? Instead of wiping out a subspecies peace reigns.

 

[ericbeaumont]

my local bees are an affront to nature and are just horrible

4-5 miles away in a different valley, local bees appear quite reasonable

reality is your local bees are like that because of imports

Perhaps the other way round, and the reasonable are the result of imports. Who can tell with certainty?

 

[elainemary]

The main trait I ‘select’ for is temper. I have a zero tolerance policy on followers and aggressive colonies (judged over a season rather than one or two inspections).

After rearing queens & bees for 8 years now whether by design or accident I have on the whole, good tempered bees, productive and generally dark queens and workers. I’m selecting my best queens for my matings and drones in my most remote apiary and I’ve worked with neighbouring beekeepers so we have different queen lines. This ensures some diversity.
This is what I mean by locally adapted - they are successful in my environment.

I have and would buy a queen in, but source from a keeper like @mbc who has a good track record of bees, that have or appear to have, dark bees and the traits I’m looking for

 

[user 819]

One can thru selection and also via selection of collected swarms have some pretty decent bees , my garden colony are not to bad but do have an off day now and then but in the main don't pose a big issue . Boiling out from the CB non existent, pretty calm on the combs, no following and certainly no defensive stinging. Swarming low tendency, infact from Sept they supersceded . Mother & daughter were both present on three occassions and both were present going into October, can't complain about their foraging skills when they produced a 247lb harvest last year.