Honey vs syrup & over wintering

[fiat500bee]

Hi Niv
thought you may be interested in a footnote David has added to his blog last week as a result of our thread here:

Note added subsequently: There’s an incorrect statement made on the beekeeping forum that I’ve conducted research into the relative benefits of honey or syrup/sugar for winter feeding of bees. I have not, and I did not make a statement claiming I did in a recent talk! I’m a virologist, not a bee nutritionist. If you want to know about bee nutrition, ask Geraldine Wright in Oxford. In fact, as indicated above, I’m not aware of conclusive scientific studies that show that one is better than the other. There are studies – usually cited by ‘natural beekeepers’ – that honey is better, but I’ve not seen evidence that these are in peer reviewed publications or properly controlled. Conversely there are are studies that claim that bees live longer on syrup/sugar, again not backed up with any evidence.

Whether honey or sugar is better is, in some ways, irrelevant. The question should be “Is syrup/sugar good enough to overwinter a colony so that it’s strong and healthy the following season?”.

This deserves a post and I can’t be bothered to follow-up on the beekeeping forum … something for the winter perhaps?

As I write above … show me the proof!

Thank you @elainemary and @fatshark for that update

It shows how carefully you need to consider all advice (about bees) and perhaps indicates a useful area for future scientific investigation. If sugar gets bees through the winter and in any case, they're then programmed to die after starting the next generation, that's fine.... they've been sufficiently healthy. But that still doesn't answer the original question.

 

[Murox]

Thank you @ elainemary and @ Fatshark for that update

It shows how carefully you need to consider all advice (about bees) and perhaps indicates a useful area for future scientific investigation. If sugar gets bees through the winter and in any case, they're then programmed to die after starting the next generation, that's fine.... they've been sufficiently healthy. But that still doesn't answer the original question.

I'm lost - What was your original question ?

 

[North End Bees]

I'm lost - What was your original question ?

The original question at the top of the post. Is there scientific proof about the benefits or otherwise as opposed to anecdotal/experience?

 

[fiat500bee]

I'm lost - What was your original question ?

As above...it wasn't my question, but you can see that I am interested to a painfully pedantic point.

I feel a new thread coming on.....

 

[Murox]

The original question at the top of the post. Is there scientific proof about the benefits or otherwise as opposed to anecdotal/experience?

I don't know of any one way or the other.
I feed to prevent starvation and sugar is cheap - because I have stolen most of their stores - because I can get good money for their honey - I'm just an opportunistic thief really.

 

[bobthecob]

Over an excluder in summer so won't be brood and a half.

What do you do about the queen laying in the super in spring (I ask because I have some B+1/2 myself)

 

[North End Bees]

What do you do about the queen laying in the super in spring (I ask because I have some B+1/2 myself)

It sounds like Ash-Rhea (who mentioned they did this) just keeps that super on permanently for stores.
No problem with popping the queen back down under a QE and letting any brood in the super emerge in the next couple of weeks.

 

[GuyNir]

What do you do about the queen laying in the super in spring (I ask because I have some B+1/2 myself)

Depending on how you manage your colonies. You don’t have to do something.

 

[Curly green finger's]

What do you do about the queen laying in the super in spring (I ask because I have some B+1/2 myself)
[/QUOTE]

Finman would say that is now a brood box.
Option, let the queen build up then do a box reversal.. You don't have to just have brood boxes for brood all season.

 

[Niv]

Hi Niv
thought you may be interested in a footnote David has added to his blog last week as a result of our thread here:

Note added subsequently: There’s an incorrect statement made on the beekeeping forum that I’ve conducted research into the relative benefits of honey or syrup/sugar for winter feeding of bees. I have not, and I did not make a statement claiming I did in a recent talk! I’m a virologist, not a bee nutritionist. If you want to know about bee nutrition, ask Geraldine Wright in Oxford. In fact, as indicated above, I’m not aware of conclusive scientific studies that show that one is better than the other. There are studies – usually cited by ‘natural beekeepers’ – that honey is better, but I’ve not seen evidence that these are in peer reviewed publications or properly controlled. Conversely there are are studies that claim that bees live longer on syrup/sugar, again not backed up with any evidence.

Whether honey or sugar is better is, in some ways, irrelevant. The question should be “Is syrup/sugar good enough to overwinter a colony so that it’s strong and healthy the following season?”.

This deserves a post and I can’t be bothered to follow-up on the beekeeping forum … something for the winter perhaps?

As I write above … show me the proof!

Well, I unreservedly apologise for misrepresenting what David (fat shark) said.

Should I delete/edit my post as I do not wish to inadvertently give out misinformation or has the follow ups sufficiently corrected me?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, I unreservedly apologise for misrepresenting what David (fat shark) said.

Should I delete/edit my post as I do not wish to inadvertently give out misinformation or has the follow ups sufficiently corrected me?

following posts are sufficient.

 

[Niv]

Think I will just become a lurker around here. Have a good weekend all.

 

[fiat500bee]

Think I will just become a lurker around here.

Don't just lurk. You're not the only one to unintentionally pass on duff information about beekeeping related subjects.. You were the catalyst for a significant contribution to the discussion because @fatshark understandably didn't want to have such a misperception perpetuated. But an incidental result of the urgency and robustness of his response is that we now have a much clearer idea that there probably isn't any real scientific evidence that can answer the title question with certainty.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Think I will just become a lurker around here. Have a good weekend all.

No need. I have apologised personally to David. It’s my fault for not keeping an eye on you lot. So lurk no more.

 

[Speybee]

That is very true, but the OP specifically asked "the benefits or otherwise of bees feeding on their own honey over winter vs being fed syrup." (i.e the honey that the bees collected is left in the hive.)

I read this to mean something else, and that was, feeding extra extracted honey via a feeder, or frames of honey taken out of a honey box ( not honey stores from the brood nest, which personally is a No No).

 

[Speybee]

2 obvious points

1. Many beekeepers take honey off a hive (you could see it as a quid-pro-quo for providing a hive etc), so giving syrup back can be necessary.
2. Even where no honey is taken, the natural survival rate for colonies in their first winter (e.g. swarms) is very low, or so I have always understood, and beekeepers would prefer that 25-50% of their collected swarms or split colonies don't die of starvation over winter.

Reading your post has given me cause for concern seeing that naturally the survival rate for colonies is very low and I’m going to be slapping on the fondant.
This Season I have hived one swarm and one cast to make 2 separate colonies.
I have made one Nuc from 3 frames brood and 2 frames stores at the end of last month with a mated caged queen that was introduced.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Reading your post has given me cause for concern seeing that naturally the survival rate for colonies is very low and I’m going to be slapping on the fondant.
This Season I have hived one swarm and one cast to make 2 separate colonies.
I have made one Nuc from 3 frames brood and 2 frames stores at the end of last month with a mated caged queen that was introduced.

Natural survival rate surely means unmanaged colonies living away from beehives
As for winter stores you simply ensure the colony has sufficient.

 

[Speybee]

I've always operated with a permanent stores super. Usually they don't need it in the summer or even winter the but it's there when they do and as it is basically a one-off filling of a super for the peace of mind of knowing that no bees will go hungry at any time of year. It's just a reservoir of food. Does anyone else here use this method? Generally I only feed for a specific purpose - mainly to soften the honey produced from ivy.

Would your ivy honey then not be ‘contaminated’ with sugar syrup, so it’s not really honey anymore?

 

[elainemary]

I'm lost - What was your original question ?

Whether anyone knew of any scientific studies to show whether bees overwinter better on honey or syrup / fondant or not!
Elaine

 

[Finman]

[QUOTE="fiat500bee, y. But that still doesn't answer the original question.
[/QUOTE]

Original Question is not relevant. If a beefarmer over winter 1000 hives with sugar 10 years, why it is not anser to your question.

No scientist has time or money to satisfy your persoona problem. Anser is very clear, how bees overwinter with sugar.