Honey vs syrup & over wintering

[Finman]

A little bit science...

When beehive moves 66% syrup from feeding box to combs and can the stores, it consumes 24% from original sugar amount.

If the hive feed Apple Juice 100 litre, it has 8 kg sugar in the Juice. When you compare the energy used to store 66% syrup to 8% Apple Juice, propaply bees will not stay alive with Juice. It can store nothing into combs.

 

[gmonag]

I understand why beekeepers feed sugar. It maximises profit. That is a choice made by the beekeeper and I am fine with that. Clearly bees will winter OK feeding on sugar syrup alone.
However please do not try to justify this choice with pseudo-science BS posted on the web. An article written in a blog is not a reference nor a proof. Neither is taking an extract out of context.

 

[bobthecob]

A little bit science...

When beehive moves 66% syrup from feeding box to combs and can the stores, it consumes 24% from original sugar amount.

If the hive feed Apple Juice 100 litre, it has 8 kg sugar in the Juice. When you compare the energy used to store 66% syrup to 8% Apple Juice, propaply bees will not stay alive with Juice. It can store nothing into combs.

OK. thanks. I will take the apple juice off my hives.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thank you for that. My question wasn't rhetorical, it was an actual question, It's great that he's a scientist as well as a beekeeper and certainly adds weight to his opinions and advice....much more valid than my own.

He’s not on here much. This forum was a difficult place for lots of people in the past. I’ve talked to him recently about CBPV and he responded quite quickly to a message on his blog

 

[beeno]

Hi all, Apologies if this has already been covered, but I only get opening post + Finman's post. Comments on the video. Nectar is not just sucrose, but sugar is which is converted by the bees into glucose and fructose by the bees' addition of the enzyme invertase now called sucrase. There are sucrose dominant nectars, glucose dominant nectars such as OSR and fructose dominant nectars such as Black Locus. Invertase is already present in phloem sap which is further modified into nectar by the nectaries of plants.

 

[Finman]

Sugar feeding is the most simple thing in beekeeping. Why guys ask help from science.

During last war WWII beekeepers had special licence to buy sugar to bees.
:it you did not feed sugar to hives, you had nothing to extract from them.

 

[Finman]

The bees produce bees all winter (with a break or two)

Do you have any proof or references to support these statements?

In Finland bees do not rear brood at winter. If the hive does, it will be dead in December

 

[North End Bees]

the OP has more than one hive and didn't specify if they were leaving it on or extracting and feeding it back so my point it applicable

Yes, they did specify so no, the point isn't applicable.
They specified: the benefits or otherwise, of bees feeding on their own honey vs being fed syrup.
The clue is in the words feeding on/being fed.
Being fed syrup means somebody is feeding it to them
Feeding on their own honey means they are eating it themselves with no intervention.

 

[Ian123]

There lies the problem.

Some think that taking honey and feeding syrup is theft, unnatural, cruel or tight-fisted and that honey is innately best, better, more natural, kinder, blah, blah.

This much I have gathered: bees need carbohydrate in the winter to produce energy, but as little or no brood is reared the nutrients and minerals and other extras in honey are not truly necessary and syrup does the job just fine.

By comparison, the same minerals and pollen and extras in honey (which are essential in the summer) produce more waste than sugar, and though winter bees have a greater capacity than summer bees to store waste, there comes a point when it must be dumped.

Hive-bound bees may resort to off-loading in the hive (which is obviously bad news) and sugar is thus the winner as as it produces less waste while producing the same energy necessary for colony survival.

Spot on!

 

[Finman]

Yes, they did specify so no, the point isn't applicable.
They specified: the benefits or otherwise, of bees feeding on their own honey vs being fed syrup.
The clue is in the words feeding on/being fed.
Being fed syrup means somebody is feeding it to them
Feeding on their own honey means they are eating it themselves with no intervention.

You do not need to feed bees own honey because bees have allredy stored the nectar which they gathered from flowers

 

[North End Bees]

You do not need to feed bees own honey because bees have allredy stored the nectar which they gathered from flowers

My point exactly!
The vagaries of the English language!

The bees are feeding (themselves) as opposed to the bees being fed.

 

[madasafish]

This debate resembles the 15th century theologians debating how many angels could perch on the tip of a needle.

Fascinating but irrelevant in the real world.

 

[beeno]

Bees overwinter perfectly on sugar syrup or fondant (carbohydrates) and the winter bees do not need any protein in the form of pollen at all during winter. But they do need protein in the form of pollen from various sources to develop their fat bodies during their larval stage and on emergence Sept/Oct. Proteins are of course needed in Feb/March for brood rearing in earnest, but winter bees can raise some early brood without pollen from their protein reserves in their fat bodies.

 

[Ash-Rhea]

I've always operated with a permanent stores super. Usually they don't need it in the summer or even winter the but it's there when they do and as it is basically a one-off filling of a super for the peace of mind of knowing that no bees will go hungry at any time of year. It's just a reservoir of food. Does anyone else here use this method? Generally I only feed for a specific purpose - mainly to soften the honey produced from ivy.

 

[beeno]

I've always operated with a permanent stores super. Usually they don't need it in the summer or even winter the but it's there when they do and as it is basically a one-off filling of a super for the peace of mind of knowing that no bees will go hungry at any time of year. It's just a reservoir of food. Does anyone else here use this method? Generally I only feed for a specific purpose - mainly to soften the honey produced from ivy.

I go on basis that there should be enough stores until next inspection. I try to remove super frames as soon as they are ripe as I see it as part of swarm prevention practices.

 

[bobthecob]

I've always operated with a permanent stores super.

You mean, above a queen excluder? If so, how do they access it in winter? If not, how do you stop the queen laying in it in spring? Or are you just running brood-and-a-half in which case the above questions are irrelevant?

 

[Swarm]

I think he means one super is dedicated to the bees whether that be above an excluder in Summer or without one in Winter.

 

[elainemary]

I attended a lecture by Prof David Evans recently and he said that his research has shown no advantage to giving honey over fondant for overwintering. He also has a website where I am sure he covers it somewhere: Welcome - The Apiarist .

There is a little in the blog : Blog - The Apiarist

Hi Niv
thought you may be interested in a footnote David has added to his blog last week as a result of our thread here:

Note added subsequently: There’s an incorrect statement made on the beekeeping forum that I’ve conducted research into the relative benefits of honey or syrup/sugar for winter feeding of bees. I have not, and I did not make a statement claiming I did in a recent talk! I’m a virologist, not a bee nutritionist. If you want to know about bee nutrition, ask Geraldine Wright in Oxford. In fact, as indicated above, I’m not aware of conclusive scientific studies that show that one is better than the other. There are studies – usually cited by ‘natural beekeepers’ – that honey is better, but I’ve not seen evidence that these are in peer reviewed publications or properly controlled. Conversely there are are studies that claim that bees live longer on syrup/sugar, again not backed up with any evidence.

Whether honey or sugar is better is, in some ways, irrelevant. The question should be “Is syrup/sugar good enough to overwinter a colony so that it’s strong and healthy the following season?”.

This deserves a post and I can’t be bothered to follow-up on the beekeeping forum … something for the winter perhaps?

As I write above … show me the proof!

 

[bobthecob]

I think he means one super is dedicated to the bees whether that be above an excluder in Summer or without one in Winter.

Fair enough - basically brood-and-a-half then, in effect.

 

[North End Bees]

Over an excluder in summer so won't be brood and a half.