Giving a talk on Poly Hives - Need evidence

[Poly Hive]

Not here in my experience hence my climatic comment.

Going north of you soon.

PH

 

[PBee]

Honey Paw Floors. First picture the insert (reversible floor on left) is in Summer setting and the solid floor is on the right. Fourth picture the insert as used in Winter .

 

[Finman]

Honey Paw Floors. First picture the insert (reversible floor on left) is in Summer setting and the solid floor is on the right. Fourth picture the insert as used in Winter .

You have 80 hives and surely enough skills to valuate the bottoms.
Have you noticed something special in that construction?


In summer I need extra bottoms and simple are well come, but even those condensation water makes harms.
Sometimes self made floor are pools of rubbish and dead bees.

Slanting floor is good. Mouse guard groove looks good.

 

[Into the lions den]

Honey Paw Floors. First picture the insert (reversible floor on left) is in Summer setting and the solid floor is on the right. Fourth picture the insert as used in Winter .

Sorry, do not like that floor one bit. Far too elaborate, catering for a climatic need totally unneccessary in the UK or Ireland.

In a mild maritime climate, such as we have even in the worst of conditions (unlike Finman who really WILL know what severe winters are), this level of sophistication is not needed. Closing the mesh is just not needed. Have tried all that faffing about here in Scotland, and the end benefit was nil, and an extra bunch of work.

If you really want to use a solid version I see you have a Nakka roof, or a copy of it, and these work well as temporary floors or splitting boards, very simple idea. Have wintered bees on them too, quite well.

We use the German origin Kombi floor, sticking to it for reasons of uniformity despite it being an old design, the only modification we make is to throw away the plastic grid supplied with it and use stainless steel mesh instead that we buy precut from United Wire. WE also clout nail it on the TOP surface of the floor rather than the more commonly directed underside.

There are other floors equally good but we do not want a mix.

The floor in your pic also, from our perspective, has some serious design issues that you might not mind, but will slow things down management wise and give extra work and equipment transport needs.

Off feeding nucs this morning. The Canada boxes need another couple of litres now brood rearing has all but ceased, just to see them through. (5 bar Langstroth poly nucs of a very very simple Canadian pattern. We generally try to overwinter 100+ of them to replace the losses in the wooden hives in spring, but due to the bad season for mating only about 80 remain from the 140 established.)

 

[PBee]

You have 80 hives and surely enough skills to valuate the bottoms.
Have you noticed something special in that construction?


In summer I need extra bottoms and simple are well come, but even those condensation water makes harms.
Sometimes self made floor are pools of rubbish and dead bees.

Slanting floor is good. Mouse guard groove looks good.

Only changed over this year (5 pallets worth from Finland) and this is where the forum members require a nod especially yourself,ITLD, and the other polyfans. Had 50 polyethylene (Nicot hives) coming into this year these I am now using for making nucs. I have mostly the solid floor as they are only half the price and much simpler. The reversible ones I got because they have an interesting pollen trap that replaces the drawer when you want to collect pollen. The trap does not work that well though - I trialled 10 against 10 overhead Sundance type trap and the latter won hands down. The mouse guard groove is handy and the plastic nicot mouseguards fit.

Sorry, do not like that floor one bit. Far too elaborate, catering for a climatic need totally unneccessary in the UK or Ireland.

In a mild maritime climate, such as we have even in the worst of conditions (unlike Finman who really WILL know what severe winters are), this level of sophistication is not needed. Closing the mesh is just not needed. Have tried all that faffing about here in Scotland, and the end benefit was nil, and an extra bunch of work.

If you really want to use a solid version I see you have a Nakka roof, or a copy of it, and these work well as temporary floors or splitting boards, very simple idea. Have wintered bees on them too, quite well.

We use the German origin Kombi floor, sticking to it for reasons of uniformity despite it being an old design, the only modification we make is to throw away the plastic grid supplied with it and use stainless steel mesh instead that we buy precut from United Wire. WE also clout nail it on the TOP surface of the floor rather than the more commonly directed inderside.

There are other floors equally good but we do not want a mix.

The floor in your pic also, from our perspective, has some serious design issues that you might not mind, but will slow things down management wise and give extra work and equipment transport needs.

The right hand one in the first picture is the solid version and as in the reply to Finman is the one I will be using bar any odd results this winter that would favour the other. The floors, feeder and roof are Honey Paw. I got samples from Paradise Honey but the feeder and roof were slightly thinner material. The brood boxes and supers I got from Paradise Honey as they had Dadant Blatt .

 

[Into the lions den]

The right hand one in the first picture is the solid version and as in the reply to Finman is the one I will be using bar any odd results this winter that would favour the other.

Just be aware that solid floors are lethal in polyhives if you try to migrate the bees, such as to heather. Strong hives moved any distance at all need the mesh floor AND a travel screen. You can kill them in 20 minutes (bitter experience).

Solid floors also cause a lot of 'hanging out' in summer especially during flows, and the full mesh panel allows far more ventilation and thus less problems with apparent heat stress inside.

You will not hurt the bees wintering them on a solid floor, just we found no benefit to doing so, so the changing over is just another job that is not needed, and which, with fuel, staff wages and high numbers, adds a four figure cost for no gain. Doing it all yourself especially if your situation is a static one makes it lessof an issue.

 

[PBee]

Just be aware that solid floors are lethal in polyhives if you try to migrate the bees, such as to heather. Strong hives moved any distance at all need the mesh floor AND a travel screen. You can kill them in 20 minutes (bitter experience).

Solid floors also cause a lot of 'hanging out' in summer especially during flows, and the full mesh panel allows far more ventilation and thus less problems with apparent heat stress inside.

You will not hurt the bees wintering them on a solid floor, just we found no benefit to doing so, so the changing over is just another job that is not needed, and which, with fuel, staff wages and high numbers, adds a four figure cost for no gain. Doing it all yourself especially if your situation is a static one makes it lessof an issue.

I understand but don't intend to go any higher than around 200 hives so if needs be I can keep a few floors for moving. Have not gone to the heather after initial experiences suggested not worth it. This year though at my mating apiary in the mountains I arrived after an enforced absence of a month thinking the (double brood box) dadant drone colonies would be on the verge of starving ...... Could hardly lift them - each had nearly a full dadant brood box of Heather!!!!!! I think this is the exception rather than the norm though.

 

[For want of a better word]

Just be aware that solid floors are lethal in polyhives if you try to migrate the bees, such as to heather. Strong hives moved any distance at all need the mesh floor AND a travel screen. You can kill them in 20 minutes (bitter experience).

Thanks for that ITLD

Was trying to come up with an easy way to move the Beehivesupplies Pollies we have invested in
Floors are open mesh, but strapping the pretty lid on was not an easy option, a travel screen will be easy to make and strap on, and mean we can get more hives in the truck!

The entrance block / reducer works well too.

Not sure any hives will be moved to heather as there seems to be a lack of it around here.... plus with the thieving B******s on the moors, I would be concerned if the hive would get stolen overnight !

 

[Finman]

.
During my 50 beekeeping years I have seen many "floor innovations". They have all been revolutionary but then went into "the world of forgetten".

One old "truth" is that the floor need not to be insulated because however in winter entrance is wide open. Cold comes onto floor as severe as it is outside.

Then we have guys who keep open mesh floor even in north. Then some guys shut the mesh with lid. Then are guys who use solid floor like me.


My opinion is that not floor nor cover brings honey into the hive.
So function is that they are handy in nursing and cleaning. ]Of course they have their functions in protecting the bees inside and keep heat inside.

I have conventional floors. With polyhives shallow floor box is not enough. Condensation water and rainwater must get out from floor.

I have had insulated floors but I have not seen any advantage in them.

I have tried once mesh floors with 6 hives.
3 out them one box hives, almost died. They have 100% bigger food consumptiob on my yard. One dead and two other nerbye.

3 douple brood hives has too mesh floor and I did not noticed diffencies in wintering.


Our researcher revieled that once he had 10 mesh floor hives in windy place and they all died during winter.


I have in winter 20 cm x 1 cm entrance open and upper entrance 1,5 cm diameter. That is good ventilation. I have kept it last 30 years.

a mesh 20 x 20 cm = 400 square centimeters. I have 22.
It is 5% out of mesh floor. Well.....


Warm box but what about other energy saving points

.

 

[Finman]

Just be aware that solid floors are lethal in polyhives if you try to migrate the bees, such as to heather. Strong hives moved any distance at all need the mesh floor AND a travel screen. You can kill them in 20 minutes (bitter experience).
.

That is not true. And I have only strong hives. I move longest distances 25 km and it takes half hour to drive.

The hive needs entrance mesh. without it hive starts to boil.

I have solid floors and I move every hive from my home yard to outer pastures.

.

 

[Into the lions den]

That is not true. .

Read it as it was written. I said CAN kill not DOES kill. There are multiple factors, but most of all is the lack of an exit route for heat. You can add ambient conditions, presence of nectar, age of combs, smoothness or otherwise of handling, time of confinement, and a whole lot more besides, all factors in safe hive shifting.

Maybe the 10 hives we once killed moving from winter OSR to spring OSR...a distance of only 8 Km.................required re educating and then they would not have died? Yes some had mesh floors too and still overheated. Very distressing.

Our bees get hot. They mostly have black bee genetics in them and if you do not give a large amount of ventilation, or serious overkill on space, they get very hot and excited. Once the regurgitation starts you are in BIG trouble. Also quite common to find lots of dead drones after a shift if you have not kept them really cool. They seem to be the first to succumb.

We HAVE to close in our bees for migration as we pass through a lot of villages and end up stopped at traffic lights quite often. Netting is another option but takes time. Just mesh at the entrance would not give adequate ventilation during shifting, we need the rising heat to be able to exit by natural convection at the top of the hive, not make the bees force it out the bottom.

 

[Poly Hive]

Well Finman the best of luck to you sir.

I am completely with ITLD on this one.

PH

 

[simoncav]

Can we please get back to the point?

8 pages of discourse largely on poly hive floors....

Apart from Derek with his very interesting thermal models, does anyone else have any hard numbers on the difference between wood and poly hives in terms of the amount of energy expended by bees to keep warm in a single skin wooden hive over poly please?

Simon

 

[Poly Hive]

Nope and frankly cannot see why you need them.

Further there is no one in the UK to do such work now.

The bottom line is the bees are warmer and drier in poly and thus over winter better.

If you do not understand the drier issue, which is actually near critical for a successful winter cluster then I refer you to the articles by B. Mobus.

As for the floors. The importance is if you get it wrong and move a colony you kill it. Pretty important info really.

PH

 

[Finman]

Maybe the 10 hives we once killed moving from winter OSR to spring OSR...a distance of only 8 Km.................required re educating and then they would not have died? Yes some had mesh floors too and still overheated. Very distressing.

Our bees get hot. m.

I have moved 45 years with solid bottom. Mesh bottom was not in use when I have moved my hives and helped others' movements.

I had 30 years German Black bees and mostly their crossings.

I remember when I opened the mesh cover and I got a big cloud over me those bugs.

Nowadays I move bees during day. When I open the entrance mesh, they calm down in couple of minutes. Then after 2 hours I may see that they are foraging.

It is really big help that the starin is calm. "They are 3 days angry after nursing" was old fact, but not any more.

But if I do not put mesh into entrance and I put only a block, the hive will be over heated.

 

[Finman]

8 pages of discourse largely on poly hive floors....

Apart from Derek with his very interesting thermal models, does anyone else have any hard numbers on the difference between wood and poly hives in terms of the amount of energy expended by bees to keep warm in a single skin wooden hive over poly please?

Simon

I had 20 years single wood boxes 3 cm thick. They used during winter 50% more food than polyboxes.

Spring build up is specially good in polyhives

And not to mention my 3 frame mating nucs. Their build up is exellent.
The entrance is only 2x2 cm, even if dau temp are +30C. No mesh floor needed in nucs.

.

.

 

[Finman]

Read it as it was written. I said CAN kill not DOES kill..

If you want to kill your hive, take the queen before movement and the hive will become mad! They directly cry!

.

 

[Finman]

Well Finman the best of luck to you sir.

PH

I do not nurse my bees with luck. It is called skill.

.

 

[Poly Hive]

Call it what you like it's not a technique I consider suitable for our climate.

I have very good reasons for my thoughts here, it's called knowledge and experience.

PH

 

[Finman]

Call it what you like it's not a technique I consider suitable for our climate.

I have very good reasons for my thoughts here, it's called knowledge and experience.

PH

You really do. We boath have nursed poly hives 25 years and it surely must be enough to learn in one human life.

Polyhive or wooden hive. There is not much diffence in learning. I do not know what I should any more learn because bees stand many king of beekeepers, like you Poly. ---- How to suffocate bees in transport? That is new, yes.