Feral Bees- Catherine Thompson

[Bob Bee]

I know of a feral colony that has been in a tree for at least 4 years, dark black bees, I don't know the state of the colony but there is a lot of activity in the summer.
Just a thought, how long would humans last if we went feral, no medical treatment, vaccinations, operations, antibiotics, they say the human species cannot evolve anymore because of these influences (rightly or wrongly) but at least bees do have a chance to a certain degree although heavily intoxicated by
chemicals from sprays. Will the bees fight back and produce a strain of varroa resistant bees, there are a few promising reports and Wales has the lowest varroa populated hives in the UK for some reason (must be the rain lol)

The bees fighting back stuff is fascinating and lots of people are involved in a small way, using varroa resistance or resilience as one of the selectors for small scale breeding programs. It was interesting to hear about the B4 project setting up alongside Bibco and bibba in Cornwall recently and I'll certainly get involved in some way in monitoring and selecting along these lines, but mostly off this forum, just working with like minded beeks in my immediate area. The mention of native or black bees on here seems to generate shockwaves of abuse.

 

[Chris Luck]

Simple answer Bob Bee is that varroa will not induce untreated colony failure in three years here in France - fact.

Chris

 

[user 6228]

Simple answer Bob Bee is that varroa will not induce untreated colony failure in three years here in France - fact.

Chris

So what factor is it that means the bees survive longer in france...
it cant be the cooking?
any guesses?

 

[Bob Bee]

Simple answer Bob Bee is that varroa will not induce untreated colony failure in three years here in France - fact.

Chris

Chris, can you point to a study of a number of colonies over a number of years that demonstrates this. the Uk studies show an average of about 2.6 years, probably showing that some manage 4 or five but more only manage 2 ?

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

I keep a number of hives on a very large country estate which is managed by game keepers.
The head game keeper lives in a very old game keeper lodge in one of the forests. This chap is in his 60s I would guess and has lived in the keepers lodge all his life because his father and his fathers father have been the head game keepers there for years.

In front of the keeper lodge is a massive and very old oak tree and about 15ft up the trunk of the tree is an entrance hole to a feral bee nest. The game keeper told me it has been there all his life, his father told him that it had been there all his life to.
I have asked many questions about it, he says that it has never died out, swarms every year and can point out witch branch they first settle on before taking off.
In fact he asked me on one occasion about the mite problem and how come these bees have never been killed off by it.
He later drove me around the estate pointing out more big old trees all containing feral bee nests and all have been there as long as he can remember.
So they seem to do just fine on there own!

 

[Little John]

Amazing the amount of prejudice on here ...

Thompson's work is for a PhD thesis, which (afaik) she hasn't published yet. Pre-judgment of her findings is, by definition, prejudice.

The only blurb I could find on this study (which is funded by a Science Research Council grant) is that she had collected 2000 feral bees (sounds impressive) but from only 30 colonies, which is somewhat less impressive - even more so if you look at the distribution of the colonies under examination. But no doubt she will be addressing those issues in her thesis.

One issue which I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for, is when does a feral colony (i.e. one which has been recently kept, and therefore presumably medicated) but which has 'escaped' and set-up home in the wild - qualify as a truly wild colony ?

To my mind this is a differentiation of importance, and yet so many beekeepers (no doubt with their own agendas) simply tend to lump those two groups together.

It seems to me that before embarking upon a study of feral bees, it will first be necessary to define exactly what is meant by 'feral'. Again, no doubt Thompson will be addressing this issue.

LJ

 

[BeeJayBee]

Has anyone heard new information on Catherine Thompsons study of feral bee colonies.

There's a pdf of the original article from BeeCraft here. Her Leeds University website doesn't say much and links to a page that is password protected, which is a pity For more information about the research into the health and status of the UK's feral honey bee population please visit : http://www.honeybeeproject.co.uk

As for feral colonies dying out within 3 years, why is that so unusual? A prime swarm and several casts can deplete any colony to almost nothing, meaning that whatever bees left on the original site wouldn't be strong enough to survive through winter. It can happen to managed colonies, so what's so unusual about it happening to ferals?

The chimney bees near us have occupied the same site for many years, at least 15 but probably 20+, but nobody round here has lived in their houses for longer, so the length of time is uncertain. They've probably survived this winter because they're flying today.

I know of a yew tree that's been continuously occupied by bees since at least just after the war, but it could be longer.

None of them can be the 'original' colony, in the same way as bees in boxes are not the 'original' colony bought or acquired by a beekeeper.

Beekeepers make sure their bees live where they want them to, and make sure the site is continuously occupied, even if it's a bad site. Maybe we can learn something from these long-occupied sites?

Maybe it's the quality of the nest site that's important? A good site will be reoccupied or the queen regularly superseded, a poor site won't.

edit
P.S.
I took too long to write. Re LJ's post - I don't think what I've said is prejudiced, it's what I've seen.

 

[For want of a better word]

Well ... she was still doing talks at Associations until February of this year:

"Bee Improvement for All

A one-day event organised by the

Bee Improvement Programme for Cornwall (BIPCo)

To be held at Dobwalls Memorial Hall, Higher Meadow, Dobwalls PL14 6LS Saturday 2nd February 2013

Commencing 9.30am (for 10.00) until 4.00pm

Guest Speaker: Catherine Thompson from Leeds University

(Morphometry and DNA analysis of ‘native/near-native’ honey bees)"


Anyone go there from West Cornwall ?

Tamar Valley do?

From what I gleaned from the guest speaker.. and following Q&A session.

No truly feral ( wild) colonies are extant in the UK
There are no truly isolated sites... ie honeybees are eveywhere
Feral colonies surveyed were a mix from the local beekeepers colonies.
Apis mellifera mellifera The Cornish Black Bee is surviving very strongly in Cornwall, not just hanging on.. despite constant introduction of non native sub species and various home grown and imported hybrids.

Needless to say this is a peer reviewed PhD thesis and the full results will not be known until published

It needs to be noted that the study was nationwide, and did not focus just on Cornwall.

I would jump at the chance to survey the honeybee population of the SW peninsular... it has been discussed but I am just a few quid short of the
£250,000 + it would cost for bench fees alone to undertake a PhD and to carry out full DNA testing, microsattelite, parsimony, mDNA etc etc.

For now I am happy with the colonies of black bees I get to work with, maintaining all the respective traits expected from such a worthy insect!
( and the wing morphometry works well too...... measuring length of body hairs has now also been added to our morphometry technique... just wish someone would invent a pocket DNA synthesiser!))

sadly some will disagree with all of the above !

 

[Ely]

I know of a feral colony that has been in a tree for at least 4 years, dark black bees, I don't know the state of the colony but there is a lot of activity in the summer.
Just a thought, how long would humans last if we went feral, no medical treatment, vaccinations, operations, antibiotics, they say the human species cannot evolve anymore because of these influences (rightly or wrongly) but at least bees do have a chance to a certain degree although heavily intoxicated by
chemicals from sprays. Will the bees fight back and produce a strain of varroa resistant bees, there are a few promising reports and Wales has the lowest varroa populated hives in the UK for some reason (must be the rain lol)

No such thing as natural selection of humans anymore in 1st world countries. The weak don't starve, they breed by the support of the system. Society is degenerating. Thank labour

Although, saying that, a darwinion society would be a vey harsh one.
Sent from my XT615 using Tapatalk 2

 

[andybeehive]

Based on human life expectancy.....

Human Life Expectancy

Europe - Aprox. 80
Sub-Saharan Africa - Aprox 50

Population Grow 2007 to 2012

Europe - 322 to 501 Million 155% increase
Sub-Saharan Africa - 34 to 140 Million 412% increase

Simply living for less time does not reduce population, the ability to produce offspring, for them to reach maturity and find new viable accommodation and food is probably far more significant.

Intensive farming and forestry has reduced the number of old trees able to support a feral colony and new building techniques have resulted in significantly less bee friendly buildings. Link this to the practice of monoculture farming which has reduced the amount of "all season" food available and I feel we may be getting closer to the reason for the decline in UK wild colonies.

I wonder what percentage of swarms die before they find a new suitable home....

I have no doubt that varroa could limit the life of a wild colony to three years but that is still two seasons of swarm production. Assuming a wild colony produces two viable swarms a year this would lead to a significant population rise if all swarms survived.

I feel we may also have to look at our own breeding programs which have concentrated on producing high honey yielding, gentle, and non-swarming bees…… Our “refined” bees will have mated with the wild bee colonies passing on this reluctance to swarm. However, for a feral colony swarming is its only route to reproduction and ultimately survival.

If we consider all of the above in combination with a couple of poor summers, cold winters, poor queen mating and low stores and I think we might be a bit closer to the cause of the wild bee decline.

Andy

 

[For want of a better word]

No such thing as natural selection of humans anymore in 1st world countries. The weak don't starve, they breed by the support of the system. Society is degenerating. Thank labour

Although, saying that, a darwinion society would be a vey harsh one.
Sent from my XT615 using Tapatalk 2

Will this thread will now degenerate into a political mud slinging session as eugenics and socialism and the consequences of the privileged and wealthy few on the right are aired !

​

 

[Chris B]

One issue which I've never heard a satisfactory explanation for, is when does a feral colony (i.e. one which has been recently kept, and therefore presumably medicated) but which has 'escaped' and set-up home in the wild - qualify as a truly wild colony ?

To my mind this is a differentiation of importance, and yet so many beekeepers (no doubt with their own agendas) simply tend to lump those two groups together.

It seems to me that before embarking upon a study of feral bees, it will first be necessary to define exactly what is meant by 'feral'. Again, no doubt Thompson will be addressing this issue.

LJ

I would suggest feral/wild is a meaningless distinction. There are no bees in Britain that don't cross-breed with bees bred by beekeepers.

 

[Chris Luck]

Chris, can you point to a study of a number of colonies over a number of years that demonstrates this. the Uk studies show an average of about 2.6 years, probably showing that some manage 4 or five but more only manage 2 ?

I've posted this information so many times on here, it's not new and widely known to bee keepers.

The INRA study ran for 15 years and was with colonies that had never been treated following the arrival of the mighty mite in France.

[/IMG]

As you can see the actual average was 7.9 years with some still going after 15 years.

Chris

 

[Bob Bee]

I've posted this information so many times on here, it's not new and widely known to bee keepers.

The INRA study ran for 15 years and was with colonies that had never been treated following the arrival of the mighty mite in France.

[/IMG]

As you can see the actual average was 7.9 years with some still going after 15 years.

Chris

Well it just flies in the face of the research from everywhere else and not being an acedemic qualified to find the flaws in it, I'll have to then accept that France is different to the rest of Europe. You can understand my reticence....

 

[Ely]

Will this thread will now degenerate into a political mud slinging session as eugenics and socialism and the consequences of the privileged and wealthy few on the right are aired !

​

Hope not....

Sent from my XT615 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Finman]

As you can see the actual average was 7.9 years with some still going after 15 years.

Chris

In 2004 in France, 69 000 beekeepers owned 1.3 million of hives.
AFSSA case studies:
From 2002 to 2005, a survey run on 24 apiaries (120 colonies) has shown the multi-exposure of honeybees to low doses of pesticides and the presence of various diseases in colonies, the most serious being varroosis and American foulbrood. During the winter 2005-2006, a study run on 25 apiaries (1503 colonies) that exhibited high losses (66%) had shown inadequate varroa treatments while pesticide residues were not found in dead bees. In 2007, bees from 50 hives (23 sites) were analysed to evaluate CBPV load by Real-Time PCR, following significant high mortality rates. 62% of the surveyed apiaries presented high viral loads, exceeding 1010 copies of viral genome per bee, highlighting the major role of CBPV in bee mortalities. To assess the pathological context during the winter 2007-2008, a study was conducted on 35 apiaries (1649 colonies) displaying severe winter losses (68%) in various parts of France. Inadequate varroa treatments were applied in 57% of the apiaries. ABPV and IAPV were detected in 40% and 14 % of the samples, respectively. IAPV was thus detected for the first time in France, not allowing however to establish a causal link with severe winter losses. These data highlight the need for improved molecular detection tools to ensure accurate sensitivity and specificity.
17

CNDA survey program:
A survey was completed to estimate colony losses during winter 2007/2008. 168 professional beekeepers (more than 150 hives) were randomly selected out of 782 beekeeping farms. Therefore, this survey includes 1358 apiaries and 62400 colonies. A questionnaire was sent to beekeepers. An average of 29.3% (IC95% = [26% - 32%]) of losses was recorded, ranging from 21 to 62%. The beekeepers estimated the mortality rates of colony during the winter 2005-2006 and 2006-2007 being 16.8% and 17.3 % respectively. Some regions (North-East of France) were more affected than others. Dead colonies represented 50% of the losses, when queenless and diseased colonies were 14% and 8% respectively. The rest (28%) was weak colonies unable to survive. Preliminary results for possible causes show that availability of food, strength of the colonies and varroa pressure could explain partly the losses.


Varroa tolerant honeybee program
The stock of varroa surviving colonies is maintained at INRA laboratory in Avignon. The colony survival is checked and the stock is used to find out the causes of the tolerance.

 

[Little John]

LJ's post - I don't think what I've said is prejudiced, it's what I've seen.

Just to clarify - I wasn't referring specifically to your own post.

As I recall, the OP started-off by asking "Has anyone heard new information on Catherine Thompson's study of feral bee colonies." - but instead of Yes or No, what has followed has had rather more of a general 'tone' of "we already know what she will discover" which does seems to pre-judge (hence 'pre-judice') her results or conclusions.

FWIW - I dont know what is meant by: "Verbally it would seem that of a study of her feral colonies suggests that none survive more than 3 years.", nor: "Are these statements supported by other research"

I suppose it must depend on what the OP means by "Verbally it would seem". Perhaps he has spoken with Thompson ? But that he is asking others for an update does suggest otherwise ...

LJ (somewhat confused)

 

[user 6228]

I would suggest feral/wild is a meaningless distinction. There are no bees in Britain that don't cross-breed with bees bred by beekeepers.

The distinction is in people heads. Feral implies they are all just escaped exotics.. from that alot seem to think bees native habitat is a wooden box. A lot seem to think they can't survive without beekeepers. People need to think trees when thinking about bee habitat.
Bees would better off without **** sapiens chopping down the trees and then entrapping them in nests that compare measurably very poorly to the trees.

 

[Bob Bee]

Just to clarify - I wasn't referring specifically to your own post.

As I recall, the OP started-off by asking "Has anyone heard new information on Catherine Thompson's study of feral bee colonies." - but instead of Yes or No, what has followed has had rather more of a general 'tone' of "we already know what she will discover" which does seems to pre-judge (hence 'pre-judice') her results or conclusions.

FWIW - I dont know what is meant by: "Verbally it would seem that of a study of her feral colonies suggests that none survive more than 3 years.", nor: "Are these statements supported by other research"

I suppose it must depend on what the OP means by "Verbally it would seem". Perhaps he has spoken with Thompson ? But that he is asking others for an update does suggest otherwise ...

LJ (somewhat confused)

Sorry to confuse you John, I have spoken to others who were at the Dobwalls presentation she gave, refered to above, and was simply looking for confirmation/ discussion on what was verbally reported to me from that presentation. I am happy to end the thread here, having had some useful information. I shall keep both Finmans study and the rather extrordinary French one to follow up at my leasure.

Its just a beekeepers forum..........

 

[pargyle]

Tamar Valley do?

From what I gleaned from the guest speaker.. and following Q&A session.

No truly feral ( wild) colonies are extant in the UK
There are no truly isolated sites... ie honeybees are eveywhere
Feral colonies surveyed were a mix from the local beekeepers colonies.
Apis mellifera mellifera The Cornish Black Bee is surviving very strongly in Cornwall, not just hanging on.. despite constant introduction of non native sub species and various home grown and imported hybrids.

Needless to say this is a peer reviewed PhD thesis and the full results will not be known until published

It needs to be noted that the study was nationwide, and did not focus just on Cornwall.

I would jump at the chance to survey the honeybee population of the SW peninsular... it has been discussed but I am just a few quid short of the
£250,000 + it would cost for bench fees alone to undertake a PhD and to carry out full DNA testing, microsattelite, parsimony, mDNA etc etc.

For now I am happy with the colonies of black bees I get to work with, maintaining all the respective traits expected from such a worthy insect!
( and the wing morphometry works well too...... measuring length of body hairs has now also been added to our morphometry technique... just wish someone would invent a pocket DNA synthesiser!))

sadly some will disagree with all of the above !

Well ... You've got my support ... When I win the Euromillions on Friday I will have a few quid to spare. There must be a good case for closing the Cornish border to bee traffficking and trying to establish a black bee enclave down there ?

I read the synopsis of Catherine Thompson's research and there was an article in Beecraft that was quite interesting ... but she should really have got her PhD submission buttoned up by now. As there's stacks of interest in her research she might consider a career extension on the Bee association guest speaker circuit ? Anyone know her email address ?