Examining a Flow Hive

[Madge]

...
I'm surprised at Phil, there's bending your principles and there's breaking them up into small pieces and chucking them out the window !!

I have been on one of his courses some years ago. I thought the emphasis was on keeping bees in a way that was as bee-friendly as possible, and not on the boxes they were in. However, his choice was to use TBHs, and we were there to find out about TBHs. He did not say that that was the way - the only and best way - to keep bees. So, no - he's not 'bending his principles' or 'breaking them'.

Kitta

 

[Tremyfro]

I suppose one could argue that using anything which reduced the disturbance to the colony could be a good thing. I have seen that at least one beekeeper found his bees came out of the hive during extraction...but that may have been incidental. I can't think that taking apart their home and poking about inside it is more natural than sneakily taking their honey out from under their feet.
The truth of our relationship with any of the creatures on this planet is interference. Even when we like to think we are keeping to certain natural rules...we are still far off the mark. Personally, I believe that where we can keep intervention to a minimum, and the creatures are healthy and can follow as much as possible their inclinations it improves our relationship but when it is indicated ...doing our best to ensure survival is a good thing.
Some beekeepers have been very opinionated and sometimes downright vociferous in their condemnation of the Flow hive. The advertising caught the imagination of many people...beekeepers and non beekeepers alike. It was very successful at raising the money required to bring the Flow hive to fruition...
For myself....I am curious about it. I am in awe of the design and development and wait with excitement to try it out my own Flow hive. It is clear that certain conditions are necessary for the bees to use it...a strong nectar flow, a strong healthy colony....after last summer...I feel ambiguous about its use where I live since the nectar flow was almost non existent but I am sure some of the owners of Flow hives in the UK will get the right conditions to show us how it works.

 

[For want of a better word]

Some beekeepers have been very opinionated and sometimes downright vociferous

Well put... describes the politics of all things beekeeping... remember the revolutionary Sun Hive?

Mytten da

 

[Erichalfbee]

I suppose one could argue that using anything which reduced the disturbance to the colony could be a good thing............................I am curious about it...............I feel ambiguous about its use where I live since the nectar flow was almost non existent but I am sure some of the owners of Flow hives in the UK will get the right conditions to show us how it works.

I don't think you can use disturbance as much of a criterion. You still have to look in the brood box every week during the "swarming season". That would involve taking the flow super off...yes?
As for harvesting, most people leave their supers till late summer when they are all cleared and extracted together and even if they extract periodically, clearing the bees with a clearer board and putting the wet super back is hardly any more disturbance than spending ten minutes going through a brood box. There is somebody on the flow forum arguing that blowing bees off supers kills hundreds. What hobbyist does that?
I would try one if somebody gave me one then took it away in the winter.

 

[pargyle]

I have been on one of his courses some years ago. I thought the emphasis was on keeping bees in a way that was as bee-friendly as possible, and not on the boxes they were in. However, his choice was to use TBHs, and we were there to find out about TBHs. He did not say that that was the way - the only and best way - to keep bees. So, no - he's not 'bending his principles' or 'breaking them'.

Kitta

Phil Chandler was a major influence in my thinking when I first started to look at keeping bees ... much of what he said (and practised) along with others such as Michael Bush formed the basis of my beekeeping philosophy (if you could call it that - sounds a bit too hifalutin for a simple soul like me !). However, as I moved on through my beekeeping journey, I came to realise that frames and framed hives were of so much more benefit to a new beekeeper - I built a TBH - indeed, I built and re-built it two or three times before I came finally to the conclusion that there were better ways (at my early stage of beekeeping) of letting the bees do their own thing.

I was (and still am) a member of Phil's forum - I posted what I was doing and got a pretty sharp response from Phil - in particular his dislike of framed hives, frames in general and harvesting honey in any quantity from supers. The posts have long been weeded - it was a long time ago - so I no longer have the words - only the scars.

So .. whether you think Phil is maintaining his principles is your opinion but if we just take one paragraph from a paper Phil wrote on 28th February 2011 entitled 'Non volent beekeeping for the natural beekeeper'

Quote:

"To be truly sustainable, a system must be as close to carbon-neutral as it can be, requiring no synthetic inputs and having no detrimental impact on the natural environment. So if we are to continue to have a relationship with honeybees, we have to consider what impact current beekeeping practices have and how our 'natural' approach seeks to improve on this state of affairs".

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/6011767


For frames made of plastic and then shipped halfway across the world ... ? There's a bit of a dichotomy there to start with ... and if you dig a bit into any of Phil's former articles and writings you will find that he has always eschewed the high cost of keeping bees in conventional hives .. and there can be nothing much more expensive in beekeeping than a flow hive.

I am not criticising Phil .. much of what he has said in the past and currently makes a lot of sense to me - but let's not pretend that he has not moved away from the founding principles he laid out in the Barefoot Beekeeper - and I say good ... he's now a lot closer to my style of beekeeping than he was in 2011 - who knows .. he may have even picked up a few tips on here ?

 

[Tremyfro]

I don't think you can use disturbance as much of a criterion. You still have to look in the brood box every week during the "swarming season". That would involve taking the flow super off...yes?
As for harvesting, most people leave their supers till late summer when they are all cleared and extracted together and even if they extract periodically, clearing the bees with a clearer board and putting the wet super back is hardly any more disturbance than spending ten minutes going through a brood box. There is somebody on the flow forum arguing that blowing bees off supers kills hundreds. What hobbyist does that?
I would try one if somebody gave me one then took it away in the winter.

It was one of the criterior that the Flow team used. I understand the need to inspect...though sometimes I wish there was another way...it does seem such an upheaval for the colony....although in the Beehaus the bees don't appear to be so disturbed.
Last year....my honey producing colony ate their stores so many times...filling the supers...then emptying them! By the end of the 'summer' there wasn't anything to extract....just empty supers.
If the same happens with my Flow...I will be extracting air.
I will share with you...you provide the good weather and forage...and I will let you turn the key!

 

[Madge]

... but if we just take one paragraph from a paper Phil wrote on 28th February 2011 entitled 'Non volent beekeeping for the natural beekeeper'

Quote:

.... [and so on ...]

I am not criticising Phil .. .... but let's not pretend that he has not moved away from the founding principles he laid out in the Barefoot Beekeeper...

That quote means nothing about his attitude to a particular box - it is something to aim for.

Yes, you are criticising him - which is fine - but I think you should do it on a basis of actually understanding what he is on about.

By the way, I'm not his spokesperson. I don't even have a TBH.

Kitta

PS: I've just copied his principles from his book:

1. Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
2. Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to lose.
3. The bees know what they are doing: our job it to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their wellbeing.

There's nothing controversial about that, or anything to suggest he has moved away from his principles.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Some beekeepers have been very opinionated and sometimes downright vociferous

Well put... describes the politics of all things beekeeping... remember the revolutionary Sun Hive?

Mytten da

Shhhhhhhhhhh!

 

[Tremyfro]

Shhhhhhhhhhh!

Yeah Shhhhhh...I'm still basking in the glow from my 'Well put'. Glorious praise indeed.

 

[pargyle]

That quote means nothing about his attitude to a particular box - it is something to aim for.

...

By the way, I'm not his spokesperson. I don't even have a TBH.

1. Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
2. Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to lose.
3. The bees know what they are doing: our job it to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their wellbeing.

Sorry Kitta, I rest my case .... Plastic shipped halfway across the world does not meet or even come near to these 'principles'.

I've read just about every word that Phil Chandler has ever written and I really cannot reconcile the Flow Hive with anything that he has previously put in to print.

 

[Into the lions den]

Phil Chandler came to interview me about the Coop project in England back when it was first set up. I was advised to avoid it but went ahead to deal with the criticism head on.

He made a podcast of his visit.

His reputation preceded him and it was going to be real hatchet job on what we were doing. Of course it was? I disagreed with almost all he had previously asserted and bee inspectors I knew suffered apoplexy at the name.

However, not one to avoid dealing with such things we met up at Down Ampney at the agreed hour.

Surprise surprise.......he was most polite and very interested and gave what I considered a very fair critique from his point of view of the project. I had no serious issues with what he had to say. He was pragmatic and did not come across like an inflexible extremist at all.

Fair is fair.....and despite his prior reputation and the warnings, I rather liked the man and found his pragmatism laudible. We all have to be prepared to say we like what we see especially if it runs against our cherished ideas but is an obvious success.

However....the flow hive........needs rapid and high levels of honey flow.....yet some people up here are buying them. The average blossom crop in this area in recent years is 6Kg, not the 100 to 250 Kg of the area this is designed for, and we have grumbly difficult OSR to deal with that unless very fresh is going to give serious issues to a flow hive. Then there is the biggest crop, calluna, which is thixotropic............so will not flow.

NOT a hive for our environment.

One of our farms has bought two for their farm shop and want me to put bees in them. Head shaking time. They believed all the spiel about them but I went through the sums and showed that, even if it operates perfectly, calculating returns over costs, payback time is approximately 80 years.

 

[Tremyfro]

NOT a hive for our environment.

This may well be true.....especially in some areas and with a poor summer.
However...we have yet to find out ...though we may only be able to use it in exceptional good years.

 

[For want of a better word]

NOT a hive for our environment.

This may well be true.....especially in some areas and with a poor summer.
However...we have yet to find out ...though we may only be able to use it in exceptional good years.

Very well put... obviously an expert in all things!


Summer of 1992... then Varroa took a hold... 1949 that was a very exceptional year!

Mytten da

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

sound idea really - spend five hundred or so quid on a bit of kit which sits in the shed gathering dust for nine out of ten years (if you're lucky) so you still have to spend money on proper kit to harvest your honey.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes. I think a lot of people whose only extractor is flow frames will come unstuck. They will have to either crush and strain or buy a spinner.

 

[pargyle]

New honey flavour ... crushed plastic ... ?

 

[pargyle]

NOT a hive for our environment.

This may well be true.....especially in some areas and with a poor summer.
However...we have yet to find out ...though we may only be able to use it in exceptional good years.

I don't seem to get an actual 'flow' in the true beekeeping sense - I'm semi-urban so there is a real mix of gardens, allotments and fields within the 2 mile radius (I'm not convinced mine fly that much further) so what I see is a pretty steady flow (not exceptional) through the season - the only time when I could actually say there is a 'flow on' is when the Ivy blossoms in the autumn and they really pack it in - you can see it and smell it. The farms around me that have cropped OSR in the past are not growing it at present - at least not within any sensible foraging distance and in some respects I'm grateful for that.

I'm still waiting for that exceptional good year ... I'm just grateful if it's steady.

 

[Tremyfro]

Very well put... obviously an expert in all things!


Summer of 1992... then Varroa took a hold... 1949 that was a very exceptional year!

Mytten da

Oooooo....you are heaping praise on me.....don't get carried away too much....
Will I live long enough for the next good summer?
I suppose a steady flow of nectar would be enough....if your bees cap your honey in a wax comb them they can do the same in the Flow frame. Perhaps once used it would be easier for the bees to refill.

 

[Madge]

1. Interference in the natural lives of the bees is kept to a minimum.
2. Nothing is put into the hive that is known to be, or likely to be harmful either to the bees, to us or to the wider environment and nothing is taken out that the bees cannot afford to lose.
3. The bees know what they are doing: our job it to listen to them and provide the optimum conditions for their wellbeing.

Sorry Kitta, I rest my case .... Plastic shipped halfway across the world does not meet or even come near to these 'principles'. ...

No, you've not made any case at all. Only a hermit can live today avoiding the use of plastic, and Phil isn't one, or suggesting such a lifestyle. He cares about the bees and their wellbeing. Reread his letter - the one that you've quoted previously. He is testing it to assess whether it might be of help to some people, and he expressed some of the same doubts about it as ITLD (below) and many other people.

Kitta

...He was pragmatic and did not come across like an inflexible extremist at all.

...

However....the flow hive........needs rapid and high levels of honey flow.... ...Then there is the biggest crop, calluna, which is thixotropic............so will not flow.

NOT a hive for our environment.
....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No, you've not made any case at all.

well, you must be the only one who can't see it