Epi-Pen.

[MandF]

Ah the joys of a good thread. If some let the dust settle before rattling the keys they might realise they were in danger of answering the WRONG post thus leading to all sorts of confusion.

Frankly I think this one is past it's best and a bit less of a combative stance would bode better for a few.

Life is too short and blood pressure can be dangerous.

PH

Apologies! Im so excited with all this typing, the adrenaline is rushing through my veins... I could drop dead any second

 

[BobM]

And there was me thinking I could happily lurk for a few weeks without sticking my oar in. I don't have any bees. I'm thinking about it and reading this forum to gain as much info as I can before making up my mind.

Anyway, I'm a GP. I've prescribed quite a few Epipens in my time. I'm sure most have never been used, some have been used quite appropriately and I'm sure some will have been used completely inappropriately.

The risks of inappropriate use of an Epipen are very low. Not zero, but very low. I've never heard of an adverse effect in my 25 years as a GP but of course such anecdotal evidence is pretty meaningless for very low frequency events. Then again I've no personal experience of a fatality from anaphylaxis either, read into that what you will.

I'd offer a few suggestions:
1. If someone's in extremis (collapsed) for whatever reason it's incredibly unlikely the dose of adrenaline contained in an Epipen would cause harm (the preparations intedned for health professionals are a higher dose).
2. If there's a reasonable chance that the collapse might be due to anaphylaxis then giving a dose could be a life saver.
3. The Good Samaritan principle is alive and well and so long as you're acting in good faith you're not going to be criticised, let alone sued.
4. You guys in here know more about anaphylaxis than the average person so if faced with an emergency do what you think is right. You aren't likely to be wrong.

The BNF (British National Formulary, our prescribing bible) states: "In addition, the packs need to be labelled so that in the case of rapid collapse someone else is able to administer the adrenaline" and "Adrenaline for injection is available ... e.g. EpiPen ... for very rapid administration (if necessary by a bystander or a healthcare provider if it is the only preparation available)". The intention here is clear that an untrained bystander should administer the drug if necessary.

I agree that Googling can be unhelpful. Try searching on The British Medical Journal website. I did hand pick a couple of useful links but as a newbie I can't post links
To the main bmj url try adding /content/327/7408/226.4 (Adrenaline and non-life threatening allergic reactions: Intramuscular adrenaline is safe) and /content/327/7427/1332 (Adrenaline in the treatment of anaphylaxis: what is the evidence?).

HTH

 

[tonybloke]

welcome to the forum Doc! and thanks for some qualified advice. hope we (the forum) can help you with good advice in aspects of beekeeping.

 

[Poly Hive]

Excellent post Bob and a longer more detailed version of what my Professor said.

Hopefully now this thread will end. As will the attitudes.

PH

 

[thorn]

Thanks Bob.

So the professionals have spoken. No medical risk, no legal risk. End of story.

 

[victor meldrew]

Now can we put it to bed ?
VM

 

[madasafish]

Thanks Bob.

 

[BobM]

Just a quick note to point out I can't reply to any pm's as a new member. Not being rude ...

 

[alanf]

Thanks for the references. That's as good a summary as I've seen.

 

[MartinL]

Just a quick note to point out I can't reply to any pm's as a new member. Not being rude ...

Thanks for letting me know, Was going to leave this alone but,

OH well here goes;

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16765[/URL]
Regards,
Martin...

 

[thorn]

Martin, we've had a GP give his view, which differs from that of your friend's wife, who I note is a pharmacist, and so a lot less qualified than Bob. Can I suggest you now give it a rest on the forum, and if you still harbour any worries, see your own doctor for advice.

 

[victor meldrew]

Martin, we've had a GP give his view, which differs from that of your friend's wife, who I note is a pharmacist, and so a lot less qualified than Bob. Can I suggest you now give it a rest on the forum, and if you still harbour any worries, see your own doctor for advice.

We could all stop feeding the troll ?
As in earlier post, let him have the last word which I'm sure will follow post-haste
VM

 

[MartinL]

Thanks John and Dr Bob,
looks like my Pharmacist friend was wrong and these things are tolally harmless, might get a couple myself, just incase!

Dr Bob has spoken!

 

[MandF]

Thanks Bob.

So the professionals have spoken. No medical risk, no legal risk. End of story.

Maybe admin can sticky the thread.

 

[BobM]

looks like my Pharmacist friend was wrong and these things are tolally harmless, might get a couple myself, just incase!

Steady on, not quite what I said! Nothing's totally harmless, I just said the risks are low.

The start of this thread was the OP quoting a document stating "A common remedy among beekeepers is an Epi-pen, delivering a dose of adrenaline but this should NEVER be administered by another person since unnecessary adrenaline can cause death."

I was mainly challenging the statement that it should never be given by another person. Also suggesting that many were overestimating the risks of using adrenaline whether unnecessary or not.

 

[Poly Hive]

I would challenge the common aspect but as said this thread is over due going to bed.

PH

 

[MandF]

I was mainly challenging the statement that it should never be given by another person. Also suggesting that many were overestimating the risks of using adrenaline whether unnecessary or not.

And that is exactly what people were questioning, so thank you for your input.

 

[Alphakillpestie]

I`m sorry but this seems to have run it`s course and appears to be going around in circles. This has been doing the rounds on another board recently and some don`t seem to understand the basic principles involved.

I work on the simple, basic tenant,

"one should only use and carry an epi-pen if they are diagnosed by a consultant that they are hypersensitive to bee stings and they are prescribed to them, they are not a just in case device, they if administered incorrectly are just as dangerous to the general health"

If you`re not a doctor or surgeon then you should not give adrenaline to anyone just because you believe they are having a analyphylactic episode period, that is the job of a qualified medical practitioner.

I have been reading some of the comments and on the thread in the poll section recently regarding epi-pens and I am staggered at some of the silly statements made, personally I would have thought that common sense would dictate that you only carry a pen if you personally require one, and that only you are to administer that dose to yourself only????

Sorry if that appears a bit harsh but where is the common sense with this one?

Tony

 

[oliver90owner]

Sorry if that appears a bit harsh but where is the common sense with this one?

Sorry, but Didnt I read somewhere that Common Sense died quite a while back?

Perhaps someone will dig out the epitaph?

 

[victor meldrew]

Why then carry it on ?? it's obviously exhausted as you readily agree
VM