Commercial links

[BKF Admin]

Should the Beekeeping Forum allow links to commercial websites ?

 

[Black Comb]

2 yes's and only one no means the no option may beat the individual yes options but overall the 2 yes's may be the highest. In that case will it be a yes or no win?
.

 

[oliver90owner]

Continuing from the other thread... let the moderators star out any blatant plugs.

Why should we need 24/moderation? Why should we have to burden the moderators with that task when it is simple and courteous to follow the already set-down guidelines?

Some will be taking advantage at some time, or simply burdening the moderators with extra work. People should take responsibility for what they post and keep within the guidelines, clearly set out, for using the forum.

Give an inch and those that already try to stretch the rules will be taking the proverbial mile. Or they will start whining about some other aspect of the forum which they would personally like to see changed, for their personal benefit.

RAB

 

[dpearce4]

Hi Mark

the fact the poll is for commercial links, does this mean that you will be unblocking other links such as dave cushmans site as this isnt a commercial site and others similar to that?

 

[The Cumbrian]

I too was wondering at exactly where the line should be drawn.

There appears to be a bit of an unspoken line at the moment. Take as an example the poll on which supplier for poly hives. One name was starred out the others left untouched.

To me it is a question of why the name was posted or the link suggested. If it is look for information on say the Cushman site or XYZ's sale start tomorrow then it is helping people.

On the other hand if it says "This site is good for glass hives" and it happens to be my Granddad then it is not helping it is commercial. Also if it says this is a good site for glass hive two or three times a week or even a month it is commercial.

N.B. I have begun to realise that what is said is taken very literally so for those that are going to ask what a glass hive is. To my knowledge there is no such thing I merely use the term so that I can't be accused of favouring anyone.

 

[Hivemaker.]

If a yes vote wins,then i forsee lots of commercial links,in posts,maybe even used in many signatures at the bottom of every post,then if the yes vote,but only if not connected to the business wins,still lots and lots of commercial links,and a system that is very easily open to abuse,especially by bee supply companies who would know a lot of beekeepers. Then of course the thread where someone asks for example....where can i buy a crown board.....followed by 75 different links to commercial sites, from different posters,or even several links by one poster. Think the forum may become link city.

 

[Into the lions den]

As a person who could, if I was so minded, put up a lot of commercial links, I have to say I am happy with the way things are.

When you join this forum the protocols are clear. This is a site about beekeeping and matters surrounding it and NOT a selling opportunity.

I appreciate this leaves shades of grey in between those who would abuse that, and those who have empty enough lives to indulge in pedantry about very minor issues on the outer fringes of commercialism.

Leaving the situation to admin to decide seems to work well and should be left alone. No system is perfect and no system will eliminate all gripes. C'est la vie. You join the club you play by the existing rules. Period.


ps....voted 'undecided' as I do not feel it a matter I should vote on, as I am quite plainly something of a 'cuckoo in the nest' in this place.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

How about a two strikes and you're out compromise, whereby all links are allowed unless a blatant advert (as per option 2), but if its abused then that particular site gets a permanent ******

And as Hivemaker mentions, no such links in signatures.

I find the stars in general a pain. For those blocking commercial links, the few times anyone does try to come on here to advertise they are not normally starred out until the mods have had opportunity to identify them anyway, so they circumvent the system. The lack of consistency is also not good - some are all *****s, some are partially starred (eg Th**nes)

And I definitely disagree with the non commercial starring out of the "opposition" - Cushman, BBKA, SBA etc - this site should be bigger than that.

 

[For want of a better word]

If I have bought a bee related product that has been good quality, innovative and the supplier has given an excellent service, I think I would like to tell other beekeeperers, and just as so if I feel I have been ripped off!

Difficult to do that without mentioning their company name!

Let the moderators decide !

 

[gavin]

Was that an invitation to feed you worms Murray?!

OK folks, I've bitten my tongue over this one until now. As many of you will know, I run a forum N of the border. We don't apply any kind of blocking of links to other sites, and it was the starring out of links to that smaller forum that started the debate at the bottom of the page. Poly Hive was frustrated that he tried to post something helpful to fellow beekeepers, and was stopped from doing so. It is against an ethos of running a site to be helpful to the beekeepers reading and using it and PH was quite right to point it out. It isn't even as if there is bad blood between the fora - I post here too and try to do so in a manner designed to be helpful to the beekeepers reading.

As for the shenanigans over Dave Cushman's site well, I need to start biting my tongue again! That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on any forum.

I don't see any point in voting. Commercial links are only a small part of the story.

G.

 

[AnotherNewBee]

I've gone for 'Undecided'.

As a new beek (beginner course starting soon) it's handy for me to learn about sites I haven't already found. All part of the learning curve. It's also useful to read of experienced beeks experience with the various companies that I'm finding out about.

As an experienced (other) forum user I know that opening up posting of URLs will, probably, increase the number of spam messages posted and also increase the workload of the mods. Having said that, this does appear to be a very well moderated site.

Perhaps there is a need for a new section for permanent links and reviews? I'd see the right place for it as the For Sale/Wanted section where it wouldn't be out of place, and don't allow any external links in any other sections.

OTOH it's useful, sometimes, to be able to help someone out by posting a link to an answer (e.g. a link to a web site selling wicks for paraffin heaters, or the published opening times to a conference/exhibition).

Not an easy choice for the admin/mods of a forum to make as either way has disadvantages/advantages.

 

[region2]

Thecombined Yes/Yes but vote is winning at the mo but I see it as a no-brainer. You don't need moderators 24/7 - everyone has the option to report a 'plug' to the moderators - once the rules are known (ie. Dear Mr Supplier, this form of advertising isn't acceptable and your post has been edited/deleted) then it will quickly settle down.
I get 'round the problem using the <color> tag but for links and the uninitiated it makes the forums difficult to read and use.
So, whatever the result (and please stop abstaining, that achieves nothing) why not try it for, say, 3 months and see what happens. You might be pleasantly surprised!

R2

 

[BKF Admin]

I don't see any point in voting. Commercial links are only a small part of the story.

G.

Can you elaborate Gavin ?

 

[region2]

OK folks, I've bitten my tongue over this one until now. As many of you will know, I run a forum N of the border. We don't apply any kind of blocking of links to other sites, and it was the starring out of links to that smaller forum that started the debate at the bottom of the page. Poly Hive was frustrated that he tried to post something helpful to fellow beekeepers, and was stopped from doing so. It is against an ethos of running a site to be helpful to the beekeepers reading and using it and PH was quite right to point it out. It isn't even as if there is bad blood between the fora - I post here too and try to do so in a manner designed to be helpful to the beekeepers reading.

As for the shenanigans over Dave Cushman's site well, I need to start biting my tongue again! That has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've seen on any forum.

I don't see any point in voting. Commercial links are only a small part of the story.

G.

Hear hear.

Speaking to one new visitor/beekeeper they said that they found using this forum a bit frightening due, I guess, to the strength of the posts by some regulars. Another auction forum I use quickly declined once two or three posters took it over, responding to EVERY new post and regularly criticising the postings of 'lesser' experts. From tens of posts a day it now has 1 or 2 a week...

R2

 

[alanf]

Definitions are always going to be tricky. Anyone selling honey is de facto commercial, selling a spare nuc or queen is not going to change that significantly. I can see the advantage of the 'this product worked for me' post, even if it comes with 'other suppliers are available' additions. Is it reasonable to blank out UK suppliers like Thoarnes or Paynnes when others based overseas are in the clear? Dadantt must be larger, Swientty and Lysson must be comparable.

On some technical forums suppliers are valuable contributors as part of their support duties. That doesn't mean they get free advertising, they get more flak than praise. Perhaps a compromise is to have a defined 'support' area where any commercial operation can be up front about who they are and the quality of their advice and service will be obvious. It could even extend to 'this is our new line, how are the first users getting on with it?'

 

[BKF Admin]

The way links get **** out is by automatic software.

If a link appear's often over a short space of time it takes it as a commercial venture and **** it out.

I have looked at the list and unstarred Dave cushmans site and links to the Scottish beekeepers.

Sometimes its down to laziness on my part rather than anything sinister that can cause a problem.

Admin.

 

[AnotherNewBee]

On some technical forums suppliers are valuable contributors as part of their support duties. That doesn't mean they get free advertising, they get more flak than praise. Perhaps a compromise is to have a defined 'support' area where any commercial operation can be up front about who they are and the quality of their advice and service will be obvious. It could even extend to 'this is our new line, how are the first users getting on with it?'

An excellent idea.

Commercial interests need to be served as well as hobbyist ones.

After all:

no new beeks = declining purchases from commercial firms.
declining success of commercial firms = declining supplies and rising prices for hobbyists.

In the end, we all serve and support each other in one way or another. As far as commercialism of a forum is concerned, the difficult part is getting the balance right. A 'right' balance for one forum user will not, necessarily, be the 'right' balance for another.

Blanking out links helps some, hinders others.

 

[BeeJayBee]

If the "Yes, (commercial links should be allowed) but only if the poster does not own/or is in no way connected with the business" proves the most popular, and becomes the 'rule' then I'm guessing that some advertising that is currently allowed would be stopped. Or have I got that wrong?

Some members, at the moment, have a link to their business through their forum name, but don't obviously sell anything via the site although, from time to time, they're mentioned/flagged by others as 'doing x' as a business. Others can start threads saying that they're selling their honey, weekend courses, day courses, queens, nucs for sale etc and even say how much whatever it is will cost - but, presumably because there are no links within the posts, and contact is made via the PM system, they're not blocked/starred/banned/nuked. But these posts are still 'commercial', in that goods and money are exchanged.

It makes the whole thing more than a bit confusing. Concentrating on only the 'link' part of any advertising is only going to resolve part of the issues that newcomers see.

Many specialist forums run sections where members can sell their second hand gear, flag up bargains etc. I mentioned it here http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=209981&postcount=27 It might be worth looking at some other sites to see how they're run, and how they make sure they don't attract one-post spammers.

 

[Black Comb]

If a yes vote wins,then i forsee lots of commercial links,in posts,maybe even used in many signatures at the bottom of every post,then if the yes vote,but only if not connected to the business wins,still lots and lots of commercial links,and a system that is very easily open to abuse,especially by bee supply companies who would know a lot of beekeepers. Then of course the thread where someone asks for example....where can i buy a crown board.....followed by 75 different links to commercial sites, from different posters,or even several links by one poster. Think the forum may become link city.

I'm on several other forums that allow links and this just does not happen. If it did the mods would soon sort it.

As for 24 hour moderation, just not needed. If an wide boy been supplier posts something at 3.00am then deleting it a 8 .00am would be fine.

 

[Hivemaker.]

If it did the mods would soon sort it.

And how would they sort it,if commercial links were allowed.