Keeping Warre's commercially

[ericbeaumont]

how do you stack the boxes when not using the Qx?

Usual to overwinter on 2 BBs; 3 goes between those, perhaps 4 on top a while later to accommodate a spring flow, and 5 under 4 for the main flow. If 6 is needed, it goes on top to save energy.

That recipe is fluid and variable and you can make it up as you go along; Tim Rowe's one-box principle is worth watching and makes for a simple life.

 

[pargyle]

I might try to manage a couple of hives that way next year. @pargyle @ericbeaumont how do you stack the boxes when not using the Qx? Assuming they are overwintered in single or dble, do you add the boxes below for the brood nest to make it's way down as frames get filled with nectar?

I run 14 x 12 so overwinter on a single brood box - a well stocked 14 x 12 will usually have enough stores to see them through to spring - indeed, sometimes. I'm taking frames of stores out in spring.

I just add supers fairly early in spring when there is nectar about - sometimes the queen will lay up a bit in the first super but as the season draws on they back fill with honey and the queens stays in the brood box - there is rarely any brood in the supers when it comes to extraction at the end of summer - if there is I just leave those frames until the brood has emerged and spin out the ones without.

 

[SWEET]

Just towering brood boxes upon one another

Like this ? -

Works well and hope you're strong

You could just leave them with new Queens in Spring if you don't have the time, 7 days for me as doing lots of other stuff so removing resource etc.

 

[jarmo henttu]

I'm prepared for the flak! I've already sunk thousands into various Nationals, but having read David Heaf's fascinating books and The Idle Beekeeper which was equally fascinating, I'm wondering if it's possible to keep bees commercially in a Warre type system (utilising my National equipment) of just towering brood boxes upon one another and taking the nadired boxes occasionally with minimal intervention/inspections apart from sublimation, largely for some out apiaries that are open to me but too far to bother travelling to every week during May and June? Bill Anderson cites the honey from such hives as being comparable to Manuka for UMF, presumably because honey recovered from it has come from previously inhabited brood cells that were then coated with propolis and refilled with honey? I've got a hydropress for my main crop of heather already so the faff and mess would be minimal. Worth experimenting with or just plain stupid? Heaf claims there are already several beefarmers doing this with Warre's but I've not heard of any. Grateful for any constructive input, cheers, R

In warre hive you must destroy the combs, and those combs have as much honey energy as the honey inside has.

To the beekeeper the honey will cost two times as much as in nornal frame comb system.

I cannot not believe that someone has commercial warre honey production. It is huge waste of honey and bee work.

 

[bontbee]

I tried OSBs as I liked the idea of just one size of box but a) the box itself is very heavy, b) it takes 12 frames, not 11 so there's no saving of weight there and, so, c) I can't lift them when full of honey!

I use deep nationals as supers to get comb drawn, but have to go the the faff of removing a couple of frames when they're full just to shift them. Nice to have the comb, though

 

[Antipodes]

I tried OSBs as I liked the idea of just one size of box but a) the box itself is very heavy, b) it takes 12 frames, not 11 so there's no saving of weight there and, so, c) I can't lift them when full of honey!

I use deep nationals as supers to get comb drawn, but have to go the the faff of removing a couple of frames when they're full just to shift them. Nice to have the comb, though

Here, most just use boxes the size of a national super- both for brood and honey. It's a pretty good OSB system to be fair.
You can see them here....
https://guide.michelin.com/en/article/features/tasmanian-leatherwood-honey

 

[ericbeaumont]

the box itself is very heavy

Yes, the Rose box is partly ply and while that may save on production costs, it is a heavy & thermally inefficient material, and bear in mind that ply doesn't last that long. Until someone makes a poly Rose (ie. never) the Abelo 11-frame National brood box is a light, thermally efficient alternative that will last 40+ years.

 

[oxnatbees]

Tim Malfoy in Oz uses frames - everyone thete has to, by law - so I think he spins out honey, no crushing.

No varroa in Oz (er.....) means they have one less issue there. Though they do have Small Hive Beetle in the more tropical bits, Tim is in the Blue Mountains. One issue beekeepers there have is wildfires, so I guess the pluses and minuses may cancel.

How he nadirs stacks many boxes high I don't know. Abbe Warré had junior monks to do his heavy lifting. One reason Warre boxes are smaller than Nationals is, to limit the weight you need to lift. I would not try to nadir Nationals.

 

[ericbeaumont]

How he nadirs stacks many boxes high I don't know

Maybe he doesn't nadir. If the aim is to give laying space at the base, adding a box in-between or on top will have a similar effect, in that the bottom box will then be lower in the stack, and nectar shifted up.

David Heaf developed a mediaeval crane to lift a stack to add a box under, but for practical purposes that is quite mad, and unnecessary for effective management.

 

[Antipodes]

Maybe he doesn't nadir. If the aim is to give laying space at the base, adding a box in-between or on top will have a similar effect, in that the bottom box will then be lower in the stack, and nectar shifted up.

David Heaf developed a mediaeval crane to lift a stack to add a box under, but for practical purposes that is quite mad, and unnecessary for effective management.

Tim mentions nadiring as if he is doing it, hope you can access the comments on this link.....

https://malfroysgold.com.au/pages/warre-hives-and-honey

 

[jarmo henttu]

Portuguese reversivel hives (used widely in the south) are run - as I understand it - on a Warre-like system, but in boxes (not dissimilar to nationals in size) with moveable frames. That is to say they generally use a single size of box, no excluder, and under-super.

... So it's clearly viable as a commercial 'method'.

Like @pargyle , I am experimenting - both with a standard Warre, and with foundationless nationals, run on similar principles (and with solid floor, XYZ intrances etc...).

Whilst I've only been running the latter for a couple of years, my initial thoughts are that the bees seem more settled. Swarming is minimal, and Queens are not getting replaced as frequently. Maybe just coincidence.

On the honey quality (from the Warre), whilst I think you'd be hard-pushed to assert it contained beneficial compounds equivalent to Manuka, the fact that the comb has previously been used for brood, and the fact that, when crushed, pollen in any cells bleeds out into the honey in great quantity both mean that the resulting honey I have extracted is super, super rich and aromatic. I've had it described to me as 'honey to the power of ten' and 'honey on steroids'.

Of course, those who choose not to believe me are welcome to opine that it's all bollocks

Warrehive does not have movable frames. If it has, then it is propably Langstroth in worldwide.

 

[rolande]

Warrehive does not have movable frames. If it has, then it is propably Langstroth in worldwide.

Lots of warres are ran with frames in Europe to the extent that holtermann and icko carry them as standard stock. Time moves on

 

[jarmo henttu]

Lots of warres are ran with frames in Europe to the extent that holtetmann and icko carry them as standard stock. Time moves on

What makes it then warre?
- no swarming inspection?
- crushing combs and loosing half of yield?
- having no extractor (that is no method)

 

[rolande]

What makes it then warre?

Progress

 

[jarmo henttu]

Progress

To me progress is 120 kg honey per hive.

I can dump all my savings into progress without getting back anything.

 

[rolande]

What makes it then warre?
- no swarming inspection?
- crushing combs and loosing half of yield?
- having no extractor (that is no method)

From the 5th edition of Warres book, copied from the bio bees website (my highlight):

"Nowadays, I recommend without hesitation the People's Hive with fixed combs, even for very large enterprises. [...] However, out of respect for the freedom of my readers, I will describe the People's Hive in its three forms: fixed comb, ordinary frames, open frames with closed ends"

 

[rolande]

To me progress is 120 kg honey per hive.

I can dump all my savings into progress without getting back anything.

Yet people have made money with warres, it's the individual that makes it work or not, my point has consistently been that I don't think the warre methodology as promoted by some fans of the system will ever be scalable on a commercial basis but if you give me a box I'll make queens, bees and honey no matter what size or shape the box is.

 

[jarmo henttu]

Yet people have made money with warres, it's the individual that makes it work or not, my point has consistently been that I don't think the warre methodology as promoted by some fans of the system will ever be scalable on a commercial basis but if you give me a box I'll make queens, bees and honey no matter what size or shape the box is.

I cannot say anything because I do not know what is modern warre.

In Finland black bee keepers have invented a gold mine. They say that black bee / German Bkack Bee is an original bee in Finland and some take 100 €/kg.from honey.

Varroa killed our " original" bees 35 years ago.

 

[SWEET]

If anyone was pondering using a single size box, here are my 10 frame DN4 fully capped (poly). Lots of pros but they are heavy but manageable.

 

[Lislarybees]

Tim mentions nadiring as if he is doing it, hope you can access the comments on this link.....

https://malfroysgold.com.au/pages/warre-hives-and-honey

My friend and neighbour here in Sligo ran a commercial beekeeping operation in Australia with Tim‘s Dad. They kept 2000 colonies between just the two of them. They ran 1000 colonies at their home apiaries and 1000 were moved on a truck not for pollination but chasing nectar flows. If they hit the right flow they could harvest a lot of honey in a very short time. It was a lot of work and at the end of the day their honey was sold on the commodity market. I believe from what my friend has said - Tim‘s looked at that and made it his goal to have a more sustainable business on every level and market a premium product at a premium price.

He nadirs the colonies and it’s all done by hand. All the comb is crushed and pressed in machinery that Tim developed himself. He tried using devices he brought over from Europe but they weren’t up to the task.

I hope to visit his operation some day!

You can see on his site that he markets some of the honey as ‘post brood’ this is something Leo Sharashkin also does selling it as bee bread honey and for a big premium.

On a small scale I’ve crushed and strained pollen rich frames. It’s delicious but very different.